Oral History with Focus on Sandia Cave
Doris and Jim Greenacre
conducted by Tony Baker -- March 6, 1983
transcribed by Tony Baker -- May 1, 2005

dg--Doris Greenacre, jg--Jim Greenacre, tb--Tony Baker
yellow highlighting pertains to Sandia Cave
near-red font are the author's 2004 explanations

Load entries  1-500   501-1000   1501-End

1001tbOh, I've got no problem. I'm tying up... I've got more loose ends to run down before I... as a result of... all that we looking at and doing...
1002dgI'm sorry. I'll try not to... I just got to looking at...
1003tbNo, no, no. What I mean is maybe there's another paper I can write. I'm just learning because I am... my father and I have found, believe it or not, many Folsom sites around Albuquerque since... well, I don't know how Hibben was then, but when I started college, which would have been 1963, okay. About 1964 I had to take a number of social science electives to graduate and so I stumbled into anthropology. And Hibben was such a dynamic individual in the classroom for young students. I just sat there and I went home and I said, Daddy why don't we go arrowhead hunting. You know, when I was a little kid I can always remember he'd drag me out across the sand dunes, you know. And I didn't want any part of that and he finally gave up on me. And so that's what started it. In four or fives years there we started finding Folsom sites and Eden sites.
1004jgThis is the kid that drove the car, Donald Lehmer, that says he's from Albuquerque. His home is Utah. And I believe that he was living... in order to get in-state tuition, I think he had an aunt.
1005dgLet's see that picture, Jim. See if I can remember him.
1006tbWell now, there's a Mary Lehmer.
1007jgYeah, he married a Mary... what was her name, Mary...
1008dgI don't know. I cannot...
1009jgScoggins. No not Scoggins. Yeah, I think it was. I'm thinking of Sherry Scoggins, too. No relation, I think. I think he married a Mary Scoggins. (In entry 1045, Jim remembers her name to be Mary Scanlon and not Mary Scoggins.)
1010dgWell, was she in school?
1011jgUm hum. First name was Mary; little tiny short girl.
1012dgYou don't know where she was in school?
1013jgWell I think he was a sophomore then, I think. She was probably a sophomore too.
1014dgOh, these skirts.
1015tbI'll tell you what, those are starting to look like today again.
1016dgI know it.
1017tbI got a seventeen year old daughter who wears...
1018dgOh, have you really. How many children?
1019tbI have two. I have a boy who's going to be in the fifth grade. He's in fourth grade now. And I got a girl who's a junior, going to be a senior in high school. She... what do you think of this school up here?
1020jgCSU?
1021tbYeah.
1022jgVery fine, if... it depends on what you want. (jg)
1023tbI don't know. She's kind of like most girls right now. She doesn't know what she wants to do. She's not bad in science, math...
1024jgThey have a good engineering school here, a very fine veterinarian school.
1025tbI understand the veterinarian school is very, very difficult for you to get into.
1026jgYeah, it's not easy, but it is one of the best in the country. They also have an excellent computer science. In fact, I guess... which company was it? Packard... oh, my gosh, they even got a... in fact, their trying to get the legislature to give them enough money to put it in a separate building altogether. You know it's... this is one of those fine tuned computers which is capable of going way beyond anything we'll probably ever need but for theoretical purposes, like astronomers will begin to use it a little bit because they work with such huge numbers that all they have to do is figure out what problem it is and stick it in there and in a few seconds they got something back to look at. It's a fine... it's growing.
1027dgThey have another computer that if you submit something you have written. I mean this is not open to anybody at all. I don't even know who gets to use it, but I've heard about it and read about it. That you can submit it and it will grade your writing according to the level that... and that writers thought... we thought it would be great if we could submit some of our stuff.
1028jgNow they have a minor department here in anthropology. We have a friend that got her degree in... never heard of this until we ran into her, cultural anthropology.
1029tbYou know that's kind of what I'm being forced to take in my courses because the few teachers that are down there are all cultural anthropologists.
1030jgAnd it turned out to be...
1031dgThere's your old buddy.
1032jgBarbara Clark, she...
1033dgBut look at where she come from.
1034jgWasn't that...
1035dgWhat if we met her on the street. This is the gal that tried to get Jim, you see. (Doris is laughing hard.)
1036jgI got mixed up. I was thinking that Jane Olson from... and where was Barbara... not this Bargara. Son's wife. Where was she from, Hinsdale?
1037dgHinsdale.
1038jgThat's where I thought she was from.
1039dgNow wouldn't it be funny if she were... that's just where we've been visiting.
1040jgJane was, I believe, a junior, and Barbara was a Freshman.
1041dgWouldn't it be funny if Bargara Clark were the grandmother of some of the kids that we... we had three kids to watch after. A sixteen year old boy, fourteen year old girl and a ten year old. And after almost a month, Jim and I came home. He went to the doctor the next day. (Doris is again laughing hard.)
1042jgDon Lehmer married Mary Scanlon.
1043dgScanlon, alright. Okay, I remember that name.
1044tbWell that's Mary Lehmer then.
1045jgYeah. Mary Lehmer was Mary Scanlon.
1046tbYeah, Mary Lehmer.
1047dgWhy don't you write Scanlon on there then you'll know.
1048tbHow do you spell Scanlon?
1049dgS-c-a-n...
1050jgI just saw her picture in here the other day.
1051dgS-c-a-n-l-o-n. I think, yeah.
1052tbWell anyway, let me go back. So, the culture materials or anything that might be of... well, I'm thinking back to what Easterday said about the... all he saw was rat dung. What materials would you bag up and take back to the university or were you taking it back at that time?
1053jgYeah, if it was... we didn't take...
1054tb... the dirt back?
1055jg... the dirt back. And I'm sure we didn't take all the squirrel and rat dung, but we took samples of it. Because you know, although at that time we weren't... Bliss knew this.
1056tbCarbon 14?
1057jgCarbon 14, plus the... further down you can trace what kind of food was available at that time. Was it some plant that doesn't grow anymore. You know... what were they doing down there in my old site in Kentucky? What do they call it, paleo-botany?
1058dgYeah, something like that. It's amazing.
1059jgThey examined these seeds. Now they think they've discovered the discovery... just what I'm talking about... dung and just the earth itself. They found these seeds, which for the first time were found north of New Mexico and this is far up in Kentucky. They began to think those people must have cultivated those seeds because they're too big. Too big from the wild seed.
1060dgA site that Jim excavated in 1940, yeah it would have been '40. University of Missouri and Washington University, a young man got in touch with him about three or four years ago and they have gone back to that site. It was never finished. Jim took about 500 burials and then they closed it up and moved on to the area of the Tennessee dam along the Tennessee River. And he was trying to cover as many of those village sites as possible.
1061tbThis was a salvage archaeology prior to this dam coming in?
1062dgYes. And the cutting crews, we would watch them. They would come down that river valley and cut those trees even with the ground. It was like a giant was shaving, you know. And then pile them in big piles and burn them. And his crew would move from one point to the next, trying to keep going so that they could get the reconnaissance done. Well then, when the war came, everything was... that was it. But the material that he found in the mound, the shell mound in Butler Country, Kentucky, that's where they've gone back now and are re-thinking this and reworking. And we've been trying to see if we couldn't get back there some, you know, one of these summers. But seems like one thing after another's happened. They're still working. But it's good to know that they're carrying on with some of this, you know.
1063tbSo, Wesley Bliss had this all figured out too?
1064jgYeah.
1065tb... seeds and looking at the dung?
1066jgPollen too, you see... Yeah he...
1067dgHe was a smart guy.
1068jgHe himself wasn't a botanist or anything, but he wanted... he knew sooner or later that somebody would come that was. Now whether or not... see I don't know, maybe the university threw that stuff away.
1069tbNo. Well, they may have, I don't know.
1070jgBut anyway, he wanted to get. (End of Tape 2, Side 1)
1071jg(Beginning Tape 2, Side2) ... rather fascinating.
1072tbVery dynamic, charismatic.
1073jgOh, gosh yes. But you know the truth, he's (Hibben) what you could call a romantic archaeologist.
1074tbOh, yes. (tb)
1075jgHe's one of the few that ever got what a lot of archaeologists hoped we could do. He was poor and he married a wealthy woman. (laughter)
1076tbThat's not the first time I've heard that.
1077jgSo, instead of doing the things he's supposed to, he's off hunting mountain lions with his dogs. Now he's on this kick of importing Asiatic dry land animals into New Mexico to see if they'll survive. And he went up on... south of the Grand Canyon, where they have these stone towers. Probably Anasazi. But anyway, he wrote an article on it and... this wasn't too long ago, he wrote this article I think. This was in National Geographic. I just thought to myself, well that's romantic Frank, for sure. Because he turned these stone towers into the most romantic and wonderful things you could imagine; heaps of dead bodies on the inside.
1078tbYou know, there was a small little Folsom site (Rio Rancho Folsom Site) that was found by amateurs out there west of Albuquerque, on that Mesa out there. And it was just in the blow sand so to speak. And Hibben conned... they were putting in a subdivision and Hibben conned the subdivision owners into a thousand dollars or some small sum to go out and excavate. And he had this one graduate student (Jerry Dawson)... now this is in the 60's okay, who had the job of excavating. Well it wasn't enough money for the graduate student even to eat on and so my father and myself, just a little bit, would actually drive him out to his own dig. And my father stayed out there and helped him a little bit in the dig. And it was nothing but blow sand, you know. But Hibben wrote... he started writing all this bologna in the newspapers to justify this thousand dollars he'd got from the subdivision. And they had found these holes... depressed soil changed areas, and Hibben had a house there and everything before long. Right in the middle of this sand dune, this Folsom site. You know, it's just all bologna. There was no spots like this on the ground.
1079dgIs he still at the University?
1080tbHe's not associated with it anymore.
1081jgOh, is that right? You remember when we went to the lecture when we were in Flagstaff, Frank came over talking about these animals that he was importing and I hung around and introduced him to you. I don't think he was too glad to see me. I think he could still remember the day I wrote (E. B.) Howard. But he was friendly. He gave a marvelous talk; just the same old Frank. Boy you could just see these gazelles running through the plains of New Mexico, mountain lions trailing them.
1082dgBut you know having been listening in all the years Jim and this Bohannon (Lindenmeier crew member 988-991) that we mentioned who was completely factual. You don't say it unless you know it. I now feel that there has to be a place for the romantics in this because sometimes that's the only way you can get the interest of people, in order to get the money to carry on.
1083jgYeah. I think there's a little of that going on at... if that's true I'm going to tell you one thing, Hibben's an expert at producing it. (laughter)
1084tbI think I'm coming from the same place you folks are. We've been kind of jockeying for position all the time. But that's one of the reasons I'm up here is...
1085jgYou know scientists don't discredit him because he's very smart. He's really an intelligent man. It's just that is so easy for him to...
1086tbTo add a little?
1087jg... to see a little bit more...
1088dgWell, of course. He can... just like I am. He can see... Jim mentioned Dr. Renaud. Now does this name mean...
1089tbThat doesn't mean... the name sounds slightly familiar. My father would probably know.
1090dgHe would know. Very controversial figure.
1091jgHe was a Frenchman and very...
1092dgI went to...
1093tbIs he like Hibben, Dr. Renaud?
1094jgWell, I'd say he's a little worse than Hibben. He didn't mind... if he was trying to get a dollar he just lied just as straight-faced as...
1095tbWell, that's kind of my opinion of Hibben.
1096jgWell, ...
1097tbYou think Renaud's worse?
1098jgFrank is capable of it, but I would have to say this. He takes this whole Sandia Cave controversy... there are two sides to all these things. And I'm in no way saying that Wes was a perfect gentleman and archaeologist, you know, through all this. Frank was not either. There was antagonism and when I say that I think the reason it got started is that Wes did some exploratory, elementary work at Sandia Cave, I didn't know about it. Neither did anybody else. When apparently he discovered... hey, there's something in here. And that's when I would say it became obvious to him that he couldn't do it by himself. He said, hey Jim, hey Don, come on. And we went up there and I imagine that we did go up a few weekends before Frank ever found out about it. When Frank did he hit the roof, you see. Well, you can't blame him for that. But I wouldn't want to say that Wes did this just for orneriness. I think it was because he didn't want to say anything until there was enough...
1099jgFor something to say.
1100jgYeah, you know. Am I right? Is there something down in this hole here? I think that's probably had more to do with it than anything else. Because I think he was rather amazed when Hibben got...
1101tbWell, let me tell you about what the Hibben report (monograph) says. Now some of the things that I just cannot accept, okay. To begin with, the yellow ocher did not lay immediately under the travertine. There was a think layer of material that he calls... had the consistency of friable concrete, okay. And in this thick layer exists the Folsom complex. This is between the yellow ocher and the travertine, okay.
1102jgUm hum.
1103tbAnd out of this was taken two Folsom bases, and two complete Folsoms. However, since this stuff was so damn hard that it was not found in situ but was found when it was broken up and passed through the screen, okay. From what you have told me, that sounds... is just bologna. But now here is the kicker. Once you got through the yellow ocher then you moved into the Sandia layer, okay. And out of the Sandia layer was taken 19 Sandia projectiles, okay. Now what you have described to me already indicates that where he claims all this material cam from , you had already excavated (790-828). Backing back up to the Folsom layer, okay. There was two other projectiles that he called unfluted Folsoms, okay, and these two, in fact, there's one in the museum at the University of New Mexico that's still in the matrix of this friable concrete type material. These are what we have now found out on the West Mesa and we had named them ourselves. We called them a Belen point, okay. They are contemporary with Folsom, but they are different. (Actually, there are no dates for Belen and we only believed that Belen and Folsom were contemporaneous.) They were not part of Folsom. They're similar to... I don't know if you're familiar with Midland point?
1104jgI've seen drawings.
1105jgOkay.
1106jgI don't believe I've actually seen any.
1107tbHe also has another point in there. And all of these are complete. You stop and think of your work at Lindenmeier, okay. How many broken bases did you have to find to find a complete Folsom?
1108jgCouldn't use your fingers to count.
1109tbLike 100, maybe?
1110jgI'd say roughly around there, maybe 150, I don't know.
1111tbYou bet. We have about 150, 200 fragmented Folsoms. Probably 10, 15 Folsom sites around Albuquerque. We're still looking for that complete one.
1112jgComplete one.
1113tbYou bet. The stuff that was found in Sandia Cave was almost like a museum. You know, where they lay out their best stuff. I just can't help but think...
1114dgWell.
1115tbWell, you know where I'm coming from. It's a fraud.
1116jgYou may be right. I...
1117tbAll you have done is supported my case. I don't know if you intended to do that or not. (laughter)
1118jgI would say something that strikes me as a little bet odd. Wes knew all about the original Folsom site. He knew all about Lindenmeier. There's another one here in Owl Canyon, that Marie Wormington excavated.
1119tbYeah, I know exactly...
1120jgVery small site, that she recovers.
1121tbWasn't this called... I want to... it begins with a "p" or its on the Parker or something. I know where you're talking about up there in Owl Canyon.
1122jgYeah. By the way, it's gone. You know when they widened the highway, they blew it apart. She knew that, they were going to widen that canyon.
1123dgJust a minute.
1124jgThat's the reason she got permission to excavate what there was.
1125dgThis fellow, Bob Burgess; whoever he is, has applied a year ago; applied, or maybe longer, for a grant to continue because they say that there is a Folsom site that he has up there. And I don't know who Bob Burgess is.
1126jgI don't know either. Is he head of the Fort Collins Archaeological Society?
1127dgI don't know. Jim won't go to these meeting, see, the archaeological meetings.
1128tbI can't blame him. (laughter) I don't blame you a damn bit.
1129dgWe went to one and he said...
1130tbThey just make you so damn mad. You know the people don't know what they're talking about. And I agree they're...
1131jgI think it's wonderful they have this enthusiasm and they want to learn, expand they're knowledge...
1132tbYou just don't have time for that horseshit, do you? (laughter)
1133jgIt's just the way they go about it, you know. They don't seem to have any understanding about man, to start with.
1134tbAbsolutely.
1135jgI guess they just thought, well maybe the Bible is right. All of a sudden there was Adam, here was Eve.
1136tbI know.
1137jgAnd they just took off from there and began making Folsom points.
1138tbI know. (laughter)
1139jgI don't know.
1140tbYou were saying something about Bliss and knowing the knowledge that he...
1141jgThat's right. He was... you got to remember in the 30's there wasn't too much known, except what little they already done work on the Lindenmeier Site.
1142tbUm hum.
1143jgBut actually work had gone on there through the Coffin years before that. This was common knowledge. You can read his book published before Smithsonian ever got to it.
1144dgThe other name to entered in there too, is Dr. Figgins who was at the...
1145jgRight. Colorado Museum of Natural History.
1146dgAnd he's a name that's forgotten.
1147jgReal good friend of ours and very...
1148dgLong since dead.
1149jgHe's not an archaeologist. He wasn't. But he was a good student. He was a trained man. But he was not an anthropologist.
1150tbWell, before the original Folsom site was found, Grandfather Baker and my father were finding Folsom points out on the plains of the Panhandles of Texas and Oklahoma. And they knew they had something then. (Today, I know this statement is false. They did not start finding Folsom until 1932 or 33.)
1151jgLike, just wasn't sure, well what is it.
1152tbThey knew it was old.
1153jgWho in the heck could remember that kind of stuff?
1154tbThat's right.
1155dgSee, I've always told Jim that it just seemed to me that there ought to be more Folsom material up north here in the plains. And when the Rawhide thing went in up here... Now do you know what I'm talking about?
1156tbNo, I don't.
1157dgThe power plant.
1158tbOkay.
1159dgAt the time I was serving on an urban renewal board in the little town of Wellington and I began yelling about, were they going to do any survey up there to know what was there. And I don't know whether they did a very complete one or not.
1160tbI'll tell you a survey archaeologist today would walk through a Folsom site and couldn't find a thing. They can't see it.
1161dgWell, see that's the whole area.
1162tbYou know, if you don't have great big burnt rocks, they can't find it, or big old chunks of old cruddy choppers. That kind of material, they can't see it.
1163dgWell, I've always told Jim it would seem like there ought to be more up there.
1164tbThere probably is. There probably is.
1165jgIn relation... to our talking about Bliss having this understanding of Folsom...
1166dgHe knew what it was.
1167jgYeah, he knew that. I don't know that Hibben knew much about it because I think he was more interested in...
1168tbThe publicity?
1169jg... the publicity. In a way he's more of an ethnologist. He's interesting. He was a good student of ethnology and southwestern archaeology. But, I never heard Wes mention once, in what little stuff we found, of anything he thought about Folsom. He knew right off that due to the stratigraphy in there... one of the first things you have to do is very carefully develop it and get your paleontologist in on. That's the reason why... paleontologists got in on this deal because, yeah, they saw that... but how old? He couldn't say, well have carbon date made on this because it wasn't ready.
1170tbYou ever heard of a man named Vance Haynes? (pause) He's a carbon 14 expert out of Arizona who has done quite a bit of work with Paleo-man.
1171jgI don't know him, but I sure read that name, maybe in some report.
1172tbWell the reason I bring it up, like yourself you know, my father throughout the years has stayed interested in archaeology... In fact, up until he retired here about three years ago. He finally went back to school 30 years later and got a degree so he could teach.
1173dgWonderful.
1174tbAnd he was teaching high school and he finally worked it around where he was... oh I keep straying from one subject to another. Let me finish this story. He was teaching anthropology almost all day long in high school. But anyway, back to... in his younger days, he had a service station. And I was three or four years old. I can remember the service station and one day a fellow came in... a couple of college kids came in a bought a Coke and one of them turned it up and said, you know that looks like a Folsom flute on the bottom of that Coke bottle. My father's ears picked up. And he started talking to him and his name was Vance Haynes. And so my father helped him out a little bit getting through school. (I now believe Haynes was in the military during his time in Albuquerque.) And Vance Haynes went on to become a carbon-14 expert. Well about 1970, '69 he went back and attempted to re-carbon date some of that material that came out of Sandia Cave, the bottom stuff. And he kept coming up with dates 10 or 11,000 years, okay. That's as far back as he could get the stuff to date. And so I think that stuff below there is 10 and 11,000 years old. That stuff that you were dragging out below the yellow ocher. However, like you said you never remember any projectiles. Wesley Bliss never mentioned a word.
1175jgThat's right.
1176tbYeah.
1177jgSee that's what's striking me as funny that... this Folsom stuff appeared after the rest of us pulled out.
1178tbYeah, after you had excavated it.
1179tbWell remembering how in...
1180jgI really don't want to say that they never found any Folsom stuff in there. But I can say that the time that I spent in there, I don't know of anybody that found anything.
1181dgYou see, the world... now when I say the world, I mean our world here in Northern Colorado, was very much aware in that particular time because of the newspaper and the activity that was up there of what was happening. (Lindenmeier) And Wes certainly had ties with Northern Colorado because he came from Greeley. So he knew what this was...
1182jgHe know all about his blowout...
1183dg... and it was the most...
1184jg... picking up the... he found them himself. He was a student.
1185dgIf anybody had found the Folsom material anywhere they would have yelled because it was a pretty important thing in those days.
1186jgNow you see. You could take an implement like a little hand scraper, say a thumbnail or what we used to call a thumbnail scraper. If you found one in Lindenmeier and you found one down in Sandia Cave and you showed them to somebody but you didn't tell them which one, you wouldn't know, see.
1187tbNo question. I agree. I agree 100%.
1188jgBut whose going to say that this scraper found down in Sandia is Folsom because a scraper 500 years old and one 10,000 years old are nearly identical.
1189tbLet's look at some of these pictures in this report. (Monograph)
1190jgOkay. So you can't really say.
1191tbTo begin with, I'm curious that if these were Bliss' picture, his time, or these were pictures that were taken later, okay. This was working in the cave. Here why don't you (Doris) come over here and take my seat.
1192dgWell I wouldn't know because I've never seen it, Tony.
1193tbOh, okay.
1194dgReally, I've never even been up there. But just hearing Jim and so...
1195tbThat's a pretty poor picture. I don't know if you can make anything out of that or not. Safety Scaffolding shows in cave mouth (Page 65, Plate 1), I guess somewhere. (tb)
1196jgI thought this next picture (Page 66, Plate 2, #1) I saw was a part of the frame of the door we put up.
1197dgYes, yes.
1198jgOkay. (jg)
1199tbYou don't recognize anybody there or...? (long pause while looking at Page 66, Plate 2)
1200tbDo you ever remember anybody taking a camera up there, taking pictures when you were there?
1201jgWes had... knew somebody... the Albuquerque... what was the name of that newspaper down there?
1202tbThere was an Albuquerque Journal and Tribune.
1203jgWell, it's one of those. He borrowed an old... do you remember the old Graflex?
1204tbYep.
1205jgI think flashbulbs only cost 50 cents a piece. And he probably took a few pictures because I know later he got to use that camera going with an airplane. I think it was a big format, 5X7 or 8X10. Wes didn't have any money, so he could only buy a few. Just a little bit of film. But I think he had that old Graflex up there. Now he got a few shots inside. Mostly just trying to show us working. Very difficult in there to get anywhere.
1206tbI see a candle there. (Page 66, Plate 2, #2)
1207jgYeah. That's right. That's what we used.
1208dgHave you used a large glass to look at any of these pictures?
1209tbNo. They would mean nothing to me anyhow, see.
1210dgWell Jim... we had found in looking at old pictures that if you use a glass and sometimes you find things that you didn't know were there.
1211jgWell, this is the first time I've seen where they've used the word travertine, and that's what I've been calling it because that's what... the other word... the other name for travertine, but we did because it's common usage at that time. (Page 67, Plate 3, #2, caption)
1212tbDoes that look like anybody you can see, recognize?
1213jgThat's a woman. (Page 67, Plate 3, #1)
1214tbThat's kind of what I thought.
1215dgIs this from...
1216tbThat's the Hibbon report. (monograph)
1217jgI'm not too sure that's a woman. I wouldn't be...
1218tbOkay. Any of those pictures mean anything? (pause)
1219jgNow see, here. I'd questioned this... one a little bit.
1220tbLet me get this on my tape.
1221jgSmithsonian miscellaneous collection. I don't know how they identify that as a Folsom blade. (Page 68, Plate 4, #1)
1222tbI know. You can't, you can't.
1223jgWhich is the tools?
1224tbI don't know.
1225dgVery difficult.
1226tbVery poor pictures. This is a Xerox out of a book. I got this out of a book up in Boulder.
1227jgFolsom breccia, and travertine crust. (Page 68, Plate 4, #2, caption) I never heard Wes ever refer to anything Folsom. That's that stuff that Hibben calls that...
1228tbThat friable concrete. That breccia or something. Okay. Now, this is the unfluted Folsom, Okay. (Page 69, Plate 5, #2) This is the one that you'll find in the museum at the University of New Mexico still in that hard crust, okay. Have you ever heard of Isleta Cave?
1229jgUm hum.
1230tbDid you ever work in there?
1231jgNo, I've heard of it though.
1232tbOkay. I think this came out of Isleta Cave.
1233jgNo. Yes, I've heard of it but I...
1234tbDid you find any pottery in the cave? Supposably, that pottery came out of the cave, out of the recent layers. (Page 69, Plate5, #1)
1235jgI didn't find any. I don't know whether somebody else did or not. You see, the way it always looked to me and I guess maybe I got the ideas from Wes . I don't know. I don't think that cave had any occupancy except by rodents and possibly a coyote or a bobcat and so forth in recent times.
1236tbOkay.
1237jgBecause it does say in one of these pictures or maybe they're just talking about the stuff that was thrown back because they are working, but the entrance had to be cleared out it was plugged, you see. It's true you could get down and wedge your... get back in there far enough to say, hey we better clean this entrance out so we can keep moving. So it's true that right at the entrance where the stuff had all fallen out, we just pitched it over the cliff. I'm not talking about big stuff, you know, where you just pick it up with your hands. And some dirt mixed in with it, sure.
1238tbMostly rubble and rocks?
1239jgYeah, rubble and rocks. But it was... we were constantly looking, but we weren't moving any... there wasn't anything there that we were sifting, the rubble's too big. We got rid of it so we could sit down and work that was the main thing. But the entrance to that thing was pretty well plugged up. And you know, you didn't have to have carbon dating on it. You could tell, well heck this has been down a long time.
1240dgJim, I think of a question.
1241jgI don't remember any pottery. (jg)
1242dgDo you remember the ceiling? Now think of the ceiling where you could see it. Was it darkened from fire? You know so many rock shelters we've been in...
1243jgBut, I tell you, yes there were dark places... but there's enough leeching that took place. Now, Wes got samples of that stuff. I guess you could say it was sooty, but I don't know what his analysis was on it.
1244tbYou know sometimes the water will give you that same black look. And it's sometimes hard to tell if...
1245jgYeah, and I think that's the very reason he scraped here and there off, but I don't remember...
1246tbThere's no mention of anything like that in this report.
1247jgSee, I don't remember. He probably just got a chemist on campus to analyze it, and I don't know what the results were. It could be either way see. I don't know.
1248tbOkay. Now there's the... this one. Let see, this is the Stanley Site. These are supposably the four pieces of Folsom that came out of that site. (Page 70, Plate 6, a-d)
1249jgHum.
1250tbBut look at this. Damn Agate Basin is in it. (Page 70, Plate 6, g) That came out of it also. That came out of it, plus that one you saw in the matrix. (Page 69, Plate 5, #2) And if this... this all came right out of... these pieces right here: a, b, c, d, g, and h supposably came... looks like a museum. (Page 70, Plate 6) Where's all the other associated fragments?
1251jgWe never found anything like this. (Referring to the projectiles on Page 70) This kind of reminds you of what we were getting. (Referring to the gravers on Page 70)
1252tbDid you get the gravers? See, these are supposed to be gravers. (Page 70, Plate 6, I-n) And there's no questions about it, they are gravers. Did you get any gravers? Anything that you recognize... Wesley, he was up in this Folsom country. He would have recognized the gravers wouldn't he?
1253jgI'd say that...
1254dgNow, what's a graver?
1255jg... we had a few samples of something close to this. I don't remember anything that I can see that's been worked on there. Not worked, but worn from...
1256tbUsage, usage.
1257jgA graver?
1258dgYes.
1259jgTo make a hole in leather.
1260tbPunch of something like that.
1261dgLike an awl.
1262tbYeah, like an awl. That's a good word.
1263jgMaking beads, drill a hole.
1264dgAlright, alright.
1265jgWe use to... the stone... the bone ones found in Kentucky.
1266dgOh, we've got a neat one that we kept... a possum...
1267jgPenis bone.
1268tbI know exactly what you're talking about. Used to have one myself.
1269jgIs that right? Things like this, I would say this type of thing is familiar to me.
1270tbOkay. These are i, j, k, l, m, & n on Plate 6, okay. (Page 70) I just wanted to get that down here.
1271jgAnd gravers from Folsom level... as far as saying Folsom level, I don't know anything about that but...
1272tbThe Folsom level lied between the travertine and the yellow ocher, which you said there was none.
1273jgI'm just saying that this is the type of implement, you know I told you crude implements.
1274tbYes.
1275jgWell, that's what I'm talking about.
1276tbThose projectiles?
1277jgI wouldn't want to say nobody ever found them, but not me, not me for sure. And I know Bliss didn't. Boy...
1278dgYou would have all known if anybody had found any of this.
1279jgHe'd still be running up and down that mountain.
1280tbYou bet.
1281jgHe would have been thrilled.
1282jgFolsom blade embedded in lower surface of travertine crust. (Reading Caption of Plate 7, Page 70) See here again, how do they know it's a Folsom blade?
1283tbYep. Now you would have also recognized the damn paleo-scrapers, right?
1284jgThat's right. We had several samples of these, most of them broken. Most of these are too. (Page 72, Plate 8) I think maybe this is kind of typical of what we'd find and consider it a very good find. (jg)
1285tbUm hum.
1286jgProbably that, too.
1287dgYou mean "f". (Page 72, Plate 8)
1288jgYeah, because... besides showing that it had use it's also been, you might say, partly manufactured and more shaped so it could be used.
1289tbAbsolutely. There's no doubt in my mind that these in fact are snub-nosed scrapers like... like in this spoke shave here or as it's reported a concave scraper. I just don't think they came out of that cave.
1290jgWell I...
1291tbAnd you've supported what I've believed for many years.
1292jgThe only thing that I can say is that out of that cave came very similar objects.
1293tbOkay, you did find stuff that you can say is... was a snub-nosed type of Folsom scraper?
1294jgYeah, if you...
1295tbOkay, thinking about what...
1296jgI can find some the Arapaho left here on the surface that look just about the same.
1297tbI got no problem with that. Okay. So you did find some snub-nosed scrapers, okay.
1298jgYes, sure.
1299tbOkay. And there's some more stuff that came out of it; side scrapers, which really are just worked edges. (Page 73, Plate 9, #1)
1300jgThis thing was probably... they type of thing where you got flaked off... this was probably... accounted for more than anything else. This just... you know you can't say, well gee they used this. Well they might have. But then there's no evidence on the thing that might have been used. It's a flake.
1301tbWe're speaking to Plate 9. (Page 73) I guess it's Figure 2, a, b, c, d, and e.
1302jgYes. Titled flake knifes from Folsom level.
1303tbOkay. Now there's the Sandias. This is this type I; this is his type II point. (pause) Never saw no critters like that, huh? (Page 74, Plate 10, #2)
1304jgNo.
1305dgThis is an ivory shaft. (Page 74, Plate 10, #1)
1306tbHe's trying to make a projectile out of that ivory shaft. Did you find any bones in there?
1307jgLots of bones, yeah. There's just one that I wonder... I guess Wes also said this; he said, horse teeth.
1308tbYeah, there's a lot of talk about horse teeth in here.
1309dgHow could you get...
1310jgThe thing I remember is camel teeth.
1311tbIt also speaks to camel teeth. It also speaks to mastodon.
1312jgYes, there's some mastodon bone mixed in with it.
1313tbTeeth, molars. Do you recall any of those?
1314jgNot the molars, but the small pieces of leg or rib. Identified... paleontologist identified it as mastodon.
1315tbBut not necessarily any teeth.
1316jgI don't recall. It's possible there's piece of tooth... I just don't recall. But if you found... possibly identified other mastodon then, why not find some tooth. It should outlast everything.
1317tbBut once again you've got the puzzling question, why in the world did they carry in a mastodon's tooth in that little cave.
1318jgYeah. You see, it would make more sense to cut the thing up outside and then...
1319tbAnd you sure wouldn't take any of its teeth.
1320jgNo, leave them out there. Unless they were curious. But I wouldn't want to say... I don't recall Wes having any mastodon teeth that he uncovered and I didn't. I think, gee I think if we'd uncovered a mastodon tooth in there it would have made quite a splash on campus.
1321dgI think it would have probably been in the newspaper too, Jim. This whole area up and down were very tuned in about the Folsom material. Unless they kept a secret.
1322jgNo.
1323tbHe was in on the secret. There's some more of the Sandias. This is the type I point again, see.
1324jgYeah.
1325tbThis is Plate 11 we're looking at.
1326dgBut that doesn't say it was found in the Cave, although...
1327tbOh, yes it does.
1328jgIt does honey.
1329jgWho wrote this report? Just because it says Smithsonian doesn't mean that...
1330tbHibben.
1331jgHibben wrote it.
1332tbIt's Hibben's. See.
1333jgOkay.
1334tbHere's the...
1335jgOh yeah, Kirk. He was in on this too.
1336tbYeah, Kirk Bryan. What do you remember about him?
1337jgWell he came... (Doris start laughing) I had a wild trip with Kirk. He and a graduate fellow at Harvard, a geologist came out to work, for Roberts, to work the paleontology and geology at Lindenmeier.
1338tbOkay.
1339jgBut Kirk Bryan wanted to start way up here on the Continental Divide, see. And follow the glacial periods on down; which, it makes sense. You got to start somewhere. But anyway... who was it...
1340tbThis is not Sandia? This is when you were associated with Lindenmeier.
1341jgYeah, this is what I knew about Kirk Bryan. So Roberts came over to me, he said, would you like to take off there four days and take Dr. Bryan and... what was that kid's name? Louis somebody. And take them up on Trail Ridge Road and get them started down toward Poudre Lake so they can hook up with Purdre River. I said, yeah I guess so. He said, well you're the only one around here been up in that country. He said I've ridden over it, but I'm... he said, I know that you've been over it. So I said, okay. So we loaded up this car that this Louis... maybe he's mentioned in this report. I don't know.
1342tbI'll look.
1343jgLoaded up the car. In those days I didn't have a sleeping bag. I had two horse blankets, wool liner to sleep in. We went up on top of Trail Ridge Road. There's a shelter house there and stayed there the first night and boy it got cold. We had a fire, there's a fireplace there, we had a fire. It got pretty warm so that we could eat our canned beans and so forth and we went to bed. And there's some tables in there; there's two of them and I told them, I said, looked at the sleeping bags you know. I'd never had one and I wonder if they stayed very warm. I suggested maybe they would like to sleep on the tables and I said, I can just sleep up there close to where we've had the fire and that rock's pretty warm. I said these horse blankets keep me... Oh no. No. And this Louis said, I've slept on glaciers in Alaska in this. I said well... so I crawled on the table and Bryan he got on the other one. Louis spread out his so called glacial sleeping bag. Went to sleep. About 3:00 in the morning he was up shivering and I was just as warm as I could be on the table. I guess Dr. Bryan felt pretty comfortable. Anyway, we finally go up about 4:00 or 4:30 I guess... and we got to kidding this guy because he nearly froze to death in there in his glacial sleeping bag. But anyway, I got them started on down toward Poudre Lakes and then two days later I went back up the canyon and picked them up. Oh, let's see, where was that I picked them up? Oh, I think it was a little bit above what they call a rustic. But anyway, this Louis had made a survey of the canyon trying to trace glacial activity and he had called one area through there in his preliminary work he had referred to it as sedimentary deposits. Bryan came up he said, where are these sedimentary deposits? He (Louis) said, this you know along here. Bryan said, bullshit. He said it's metamorphosed-volcanic debris of some kind. But he said there's nothing sedimentary about it. (Jim is laughing hard)
1344tbThere's your Type II point. The difference is this is a convex and that's a concave type base. Plate 12. (pause)
1345jgI'm just not familiar with these at all.
1346tbDidn't see any of them, huh?
1347jgI don't know whether these could have come from further back I suppose.
1348tbI don't think so. You've already indicated to me that you excavated what the article (monograph) says was excavated.
1349jgYep. Can't identify them. (Type II points on Page 76, Plate 12)
1350tbThere's some...
1351jgWe found stuff like this.
1352tbThis is what? This is...
1353jgScrapers from Sandia Level.
1354tbIt's Plate 13, Figure 2 "a", "b", and "c". (Page 77)
1355jgWe found stuff like that.
1356tbYou found stuff like that?
1357jgWe might have found something like this. I don't know if we identified that as a point fragment or not.
1358tbI'm not so sure it isn't just a blade myself. (In 1983, I used the term blade instead of bifaces.) It gets hard to tell in the Plates. That's Figure "a", Sandia Point. (Page 77, Plate 13)
1359jgSo much of this stuff to, you have to remember, just like all these kinds of sites, so much of its broken.
1360tbUm hum. But we don't have any broken pieces here. It's like a museum. Now this is the Manzano Cave. Did you know anything about the Manzano cave? (Page 78, Plate 14)
1361jgNo, I haven't... (pause)
1362tbOkay, I think this is still the Manzano part.
1363jgSandia Mountain?
1364tbYeah.
1365jgWhere is that Manzano Cave at? Further back into the Sandias?
1366tbDo you remember where the Manzano mountains were?
1367jgYeah.
1368tbOkay the Manzano mountains basically are south of U.S. 66. Remember it went through Tijeras Canyon, the main road.
1369tbOkay. South is the Manzano mountains, north is the Sandia mountains. On the east side out there in the Estancia valley, there is a town called Manzano on the foot of the Manzano mountains, maybe 20 or 30 miles south of that main drag, the U.S. 66. And this cave is close to the town of Manzano.
1370jgI see. (pause)
1371tbWe're back to... that's the end of it (Monograph). This is where Hibben really blasted Wesley Bliss (Hibben 1941:266)
1372jgI was wondering if... you don't have anything by Howard, University of Pennsylvania?
1373tbLet me see. I have one more report I have not shown you yet, okay. And let's look here in the bibliography.
1374jgIt would have been republished from American Antiquity.
1375tbNo. Oh here. (pause) Look here at this bibliography.(End of Tape 2, Side 2)
1376jg(Beginning of Tape 3, Side 1) Oh Doris is looking (for the Howard article) . She thought maybe I still had some notes or something, but we've moved so many times that I think I've simply lost tract of them. But somewhere I had a copy of American Antiquity where this... with Howard's discussion of Sandia.
1377tbDo you know about what year?
1378jgOh, it would have been...
1379dgWould that be in your set of publications? (dg)
1380jgI don't know.
1381dgI'll go back and look.
1382jgIt was American Antiquity. About the size of a notebook.
1383tbYeah, I know what they are.
1384jgSmall notebook.
1385dgLike a Smithsonian?
1386jgYeah, about that size.
1387dgI'll check your desk.
1388jgI've saved most of these university bulletins, is all I read. Six or nine, something like that. I just was kind of wondering, you know, what Hibben has... he makes no reference to Howard. I just wondering maybe he didn't want to tangle with him.
1389tbI find it also very interesting that this report (Monograph) came out just about the time that your wife keeps eluding to when the world was turned upside down with the war, you know. And just everybody scattered.
1390jgYeah. Because that time I think after Wes left Pennsylvania... I just wonder if he got his Doctorate up there? See I lost track of him. He might have. I think he'd hoped to make it at Harvard but if he couldn't he might have been able to teach some more there and gotten his Doctorate at Pennsylvania. (pause) I guess I'd better not quote on Howard's article because it's been too long age.
1391tbGo ahead. What do you think he would have said or did say?
1392jgI think he was trying to take Frank down a little bit. Because apparently to him... cause I... also that I meant that Bliss and Howard are... I don't know if they're real close friends, but undoubtedly he was in the department there and Howard was the head of it. And I suppose that Wes might have taken this up with him. What's going on? Why is this guy doing all this? And I think Howard had been to Sandia Cave.
1393tbFor my information...
1394jgI met him there once.
1395tb... who is Howard again?
1396jgHe was head of the Department of Anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania. I don't know his first name.
1397tbDr. Howard, huh? But he'd been to the Cave at one time?
1398jgYes.
1399dgI found that. These are the only things other... well there's one in Salt Lake, these are the only ones other than Kentucky material in that box. Now, I'll look through the bookshelf. I don't think... (Doris walks away)
1400tbAnyway, had he been to the cave when you were there or afterwards? (pause) You don't recall?
1401jgAfterwards, I assume.
1402tbAfterwards, okay. And you assume he was on Bliss' side based on what Bliss has said in the past?
1403jgYeah, and on... well I guess he appeared to be. Some facts weren't really facts.
1404tbNo, I mean... okay. You say a publication then.
1405jgUm hum.
1406tbOh, so there is a publication.
1407jgIt's published in, I think it's American Antiquity, not a Pennsylvanian publisher. American Antiquity. And that's were either I am quoted in there in his article... I mean verbatim or else he just extracted from the information I furnished him. The two or three paragraphs that were pertinent to what he was looking for.
1408dgJim, answer me something. See if you can think. Now this is...
1409tbHere ma'am.
1410dgNo this is alright. Let me sit right here cause I'm going to have to get up.
1411tbI'm going to have to be running here...
1412jgI'm not real sure about that, so I can't...
1413dgJim, do you remember now, since you retired... we had a box that had Jim's papers. Now did we consolidate all that stuff?
1414jgYou remember those old time ledger boxes. The last thing I remember being out is a poem that Bob and I wrote from the toilet at Lindenmeier.
1415dgYes. Well I found that. We found that, and I don't know where that is right now.
1416jgBut see we took all that out and there was some in one of those expanding files, which finally went to pieces and we put all that in something.
1417dgWell that's what I was looking for out there and I did not get the ladder to climb up to look on the top shelf.
1418jgWell it may not even be out there.
1419tbWell, I can go to the library if you think it's (the Howard article that doesn't exist) in American Antiquity.
1420jgI think so. If it isn't you might look under University of Pennsylvania publications or Department of Anthropology... because it could be either one or it could be both. See, he might have published both in their bulletin and American Antiquity.
1421dgTony, since those years, Jim and I have moved 31 times. So if we're a little bit vague about some things and where they are...
1422tbOh, I think... you guys aren't vague... you remember... I hope I can remember as much as you folks. It's almost like it was yesterday talking to you folks.
1423jgYou see, one thing that kind of helps, when you start talking about these things and then you come along ask questions. We probably can't sit around asking each other these questions because we already know the answers so we won't ask the question. But you can refresh our memories by asking the questions you see.
1424dgWe have searched and searched for, and I'm still not giving up yet, but we had all the profile drawings that Jim did on the site in Kentucky. And they're very anxious... they'd give anything to find all the material and notes and so forth because all of this stuff was filed in the university museum, in their bone library. And strangely enough, some how during the years things have walked.
1425tbSame thing has happened... my father, when he excavated that Alibates site. Here came a student many, many years later and they made a national monument out of it. Another mission I don'...t think it was Quarai, but something else that he had excavated. The original notes and stuff that he put together were more valuable than anything that existed. All of the stuff that was given to the universities just disappeared. I don't know why?
1426dgWell this is sad because it's sort of like surveys...
1427jgWell sometimes, it's a question of storage and you know like in a business after a while you say, well we'd better keep that. After about ten years you say, well we'd better throw it in the trash because I've got another box to put in.
1428tbYeah. Nobody knows what the hell it means anyhow.
1429jgThat's right, so you pitch it.
1430dgWe had these rolls of graph paper that we'd saved, and I remember them. Sometimes I wonder, did we lose some things across the years? I'll tell you one thing we lost that we just... well it was tragic and I still think we were nuts. Jim had a pot that was in... a very small little pot, very old, and you could tell it might have been a child's creation or some person who was just learning, and that was very precious to us. And somewhere it disappeared. And these things trouble because you wonder, well what the heck. You thought you were taking good care of things and then... And it was something I don't think the average person would have wanted. I meant they would have looked and thought, well that's a crazy looking pot. You know it's crooked and so forth. So I think it was left in the box, wrapped in paper and we thought it was an empty box and tossed it.
1431jgYeah, that would be easy to do because you get tired of hauling all of that stuff after a while.
1432tbI made me a list of questions before I came up here. And I think that we answered just about every one of them, but we'll go through them again. I had funds for excavation. Hibben said there was few funds from 1936 to '39. 1940 saw a grant from the American Philosophical Society. Were you aware of any of this?
1433jgI didn't know about this, but I guess I can back him (Hibben) up on this. There wasn't any money available. There wasn't any money available say in 1936 and '37. I know that, except Wes' Fellowship which probably, I don't know whether he got $100 a month or not. I suppose maybe he did.
1434tbThe next one I had is, were you one of the first in the cave? Was the cave behind the vestibule blocked or could you pass all the way to the back of the cave?
1435jgOh on. No, you couldn't pass all the way back to the cave, all the way back no. To the best of my knowledge, wherever that cave ends, I've never been to the back end of it as far as anybody else at that time were because that was it. But if they were able... you know those big rocks showed on that plat...
1436tbThat was like 100 meters back or so.
1437jgYeah. If they were able to crack that or get it put of the way, well maybe you could go through sideways. You don't have to go on your belly. Go through sideways. We knew there was more cave and according to those diagrams (in the monograph) well there is more cave. But see they went a lot further.
1438tbWhat do you think he means by the word vestibule? Was there a big opening right at the front of the cave and then it narrowed down or?
1439jgWell, I think he's referring to simply is the entrance. The vestibule. The entrance, pretty well plugged up. I'd mentioned that... get rid of the rubble so you could get in.
1440dgDoes vestibule mean that, opening?
1441jgYeah, it can. Like at the church.
1442dgLet me look it up.
1443jgThe vestibule is the...
1444tbI know what it is in a house.
1445dgYeah, let's see what...
1446jgYeah. The foyer. The entrance.
1447dgSometimes words are confusing.
1448jgSometimes they mean the same thing, sometimes they don't.
1449tbI have here, Hibben says very little material was found in situ. Instead it was found on the screens or in the lab. Can you elaborate on this? And you have been doing all day. So we've done that one.
1450jgYeah.
1451tbOkay. The layer of yellow ocher located between the Folsom and Sandia layers according to his report was reported to be worn down so as a path was visible. I'll tell you more. This was to have been caused by man or animals. Can you comment of this? Well, I know that you can't because... but let me show you this diagram here that we have. And then it will become more evident to what this... okay, the way Hibben presents, we have this hard travertine or calcite layer here... I'm on Page 13 of Hibben's report (Monograph). Then we had this Folsom deposit layer in here, okay. Then you had your yellow ocher. Now supposedly in this yellow ocher he reports that there was a worn area in here like this (I draw an concave upward indention in the ocher layer on a copy of page 13) where you could see the passage of animals and people (Page 15).
1452jgNo. First of all...
1453tbFirst of all, that (yellow ocher) was up against that (calcium carbonate crust), right?
1454jgYeah, that's what I was going to say. And then secondly, this (yellow ocher) is not compacted. It was...
1455tbThe yellow ocher was not hard?
1456jgNo, it wasn't hard.
1457tbJust dust? (tb)
1458jgJust (?) dust. Terrible. Terrible. If you would have had an electric fan in there and some way to exit the dust; you know the way to excavate that... taking a big fan and just blowing her out because it would have all just blown right on out.
1459tbOkay. Teeth were used as identification in the Folsom layer. Did you find any of these or can you comment on this? And we've talked about some teeth.
1460jgYeah. Horse teeth kind of had me puzzled, but now maybe. But I remember camel. Horse, I really can't say that we didn't... because I... but I don't remember anyone saying well these are horse teeth. Camel teeth I was able to identify... most of us could identify that. They're so much different. The mastodon bones, for me just to look at a piece of mastodon bone, say 4 or 5 inch fragment from the leg, I personally can't tell you if it's from a cow or a mastodon. If it's cut in cross-section, then under a microscope you can identify the cellular structure and you'd show me the difference between that and a cow, then the next piece I'd say, well this is mastodon and this is cow. Because I got a picture to look at. But the... I know we found mastodon, but about the teeth, if we found one it must have been maybe... maybe after I left.
1461tbThese next two I'm going to... They're related together now based on what you said earlier. First on I said, "Do you recall two fire hearths in the Sandia layer; was there fire rocks around the fire?" Okay, and then this next one at the bottom of the Sandia layer there was a clay layer. This was supposed to be... there were suppose to be hollows located in it. Do you believe this represents human occupation? And if you'll recall, you told me earlier that these... that you did find this fire hearth and it was laying in one of these low spots in the floor.
1462jgUm hum.
1463tbBut you said you didn't remember any rocks.
1464jgNo.
1465tbAnd you only found one fire hearth, right?
1466jgYeah. No, no wait a minute. I worked on one but there was one further back in the cave which I think Wes referred to as central, I'm assuming that for what he knew, approximately the middle distance. Now I saw that one. And that one is the one... I'm not sure, there might have been some rocks associated with it, but I couldn't say that they formed a circle or anything like that. I don't recall. But there might have been rocks. But the one I worked on nearer to the entrance back up to 25, 30 feet or 40, whatever. As I recall there wasn't any except just the debris that the cave made over a period of time. I don't remember anything...
1467tbPurposely?
1468jgPurposely, right. I don't recall if we had anything like that. And first of all I don't think it would have been necessary for... Heck you got a nice little fireplace there.
1469tbNice little hollow there, yeah.
1470jgWhy go to the work. Primitive man, old type man was just as lazy as I am.
1471tbYou bet. Well you know they were from what you can see out there in the country. Did you ever find any projectiles yourself?
1472jgNo.
1473tbOr were you present when some were found?
1474jgNo.
1475tbOkay. There was 19 broken or complete Sandia points found. Do you remember an abundance of points?
1476jgI already answered that.
1477tbI know. I think we've answered all of these questions in our discussion. What did you find on vestibule?
1478dgWell, let me read it.
1479tbYou can't make anything out of the either, huh?
1480dgOh, it's rather interesting.
1481tbA passage, hall or antechamber between the outer door and the interior parts of the house or building. Or, let's see, railroads...
1482dgNow pass on down to this other...
1483tbOkay, zoology. Any of various cavities or hollows regarding, regarded as forming an approach or entrance to another cavity or space as that of the internal ear.
1484dgYou could apply that, too, to caves. So it would be a passage way.
1485tbWell, going back to this diagram...
1486jgWell, I think that's what the general thing is. It's more or less the entrance as you would proceed into a (?) cave.
1487tbI'm wondering if maybe he was speaking to this here. (Figure 4 Monograph) It goes out about the first 5 meters, first 15 feet in and then they have this overhang. Maybe he was speaking as that as the vestibule.
1488jgI would think so because, see after you get from here, you're getting back into the cave. This pretty well indicates it... it's pretty well loaded up with junk and we had to pitch out a lot so we could get through here. This was all plugged up.
1489tbUm hum. You were just throwing all this recent stuff over the top?
1490jgYeah. Like I say, examined it but there wasn't much there because... I would think... I think from rock shelters and other caves I've been around... it's kind of natural that the cave entrance or the shelter entrance where the exterior is exposed to weather. It's more apt to cave in and certainly further back. It just keeps sloping off and gradually it will form, even form a talus. In fact, I've heard of some caves been found by the guys saying, well gee, that's too much talus. Investigation shows, particularly in the Near East, they found some... you can't see it. There's no evidence of a cave, but you get up in pitch the stuff away. Sure enough there's a cave in there. And I think it's just a natural geological phenomenon. It's just sloughing off and finally fills up. This entrance way, by the way, was not completely filled up, but you couldn't get in. You had to move it in order to get on in.
1491tbAnd then I had written down obsidian. Do you recall, I've already asked you that too, much obsidian in the cave?
1492jgNo I sure don't. I don't remember finding any implements of obsidian. I think there's a reference somewhere of obsidian point.
1493tbNo blade.
1494jgBlade.
1495tbWesley Bliss said that they had found on obsidian blade.
1496jgNow it very well could be. I just can't recall any obsidian, but there sure could have been. In fact, in that area, why not.
1497tbOh, that country's filthy with it and this again...
1498jgIn fact, as I look back, why didn't we find a whole lot of it? (jg)
1499tbThat is exactly the question I have.
1500jgRight. I can't answer that one.

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