Oral History with Focus on Sandia Cave
Doris and Jim Greenacre
conducted by Tony Baker -- March 6, 1983
transcribed by Tony Baker -- May 1, 2005

dg--Doris Greenacre, jg--Jim Greenacre, tb--Tony Baker
yellow highlighting pertains to Sandia Cave
near-red font are the author's 2004 explanations

Load entries  1-500   501-1000   1001-1500

1501tbBecause our Folsom sites out there on the Plains around there, obsidian was one of their most desirable tools. How about the Lindenmeier site? Did you find much obsidian in it?
1502jgNo. It was all chalcedony and...
1503tbWell, you know down there they have the Jemez Mountains for the obsidian, but up here you're kind of removed.
1504jgBut there's a lot of natural chalcedony of good quality all across that escarpment there. You can go on and find beautiful pieces. I never been... I'm just talking about the natural.
1505dgHave you thought at all of trying to find Wes Bliss?
1506tbNo. As a matter of fact, Wesley Bliss was not near as important to me before I walked through that door. He is a very important individual.
1507dgOh, you're darn right. Now, let me tell you...
1508tbSee, I didn't even realize that he was a graduate student or was in an instructor type of mode.
1509dgSee they imply that he's just a... (dg)
1510tbJust a student, yeah. (tb)
1511dgOkay. Now I'm pulling my memory and I may be completely incorrect. My memory, Jim, is that is ...there a college in Whittier, California?
1512jgYes. Richard Nixon's old college.
1513dgOh heck. (lots of laughter) I don't know why but I keep thinking of that name as being the last place that we heard from him.
1514jgThat could be.
1515dgNow does that ring a bell with you at all?
1516jgIt seemed to me like maybe... you know when he came to Paintsville, he was on his way then...
1517dgYes. He was, had been back east to a meeting or something, I think. And they were on they're way back.
1518jgEither that or he was on his way to the meeting, one of the other. And it could be Whittier where he got a job. Too bad we didn't ever keep some of that correspondence. Anyway, we've got it somewhere.
1519dgSee this is what we've never done yet.
1520tbI'm not so sure that anybody has ever done what I'm doing right now.
1521dbWe keep saying, oh well, were going to tie all this down and get all this and put it in scrapbooks and Jim, his last work that he did was of some historical value, too. He helped on the project of mapping the moon. And while they don't pay any attention to that now, someday they're going to. Somebody's going to say, well how did they know where to go, see. And uh, he helped built the first dark room of the pictures that were done. But he's never...
1522tbTell me a little bit about what you've been doing here since Lindenmeier and Kentucky caves.
1523jgWell I told you I went broke in New Mexico, but my son (?). I'll tell you, we mentioned this fellow Colonel Bohannon that guy in the Philippines.
1524tbYes.
1525jgOkay, he and I were quite close friends. The University of Kentucky was opening... had gotten a... well they hadn't gotten it yet, but they were pretty sure they were going to. Do you remember WPA grants?
1526tbYes. I know I've heard about... I don't remember.
1527jgOld professor Webb at the University of Kentucky was not an anthropologist, he taught physics. But he and Funkhauser, another prof there, were very interested in the antiquities of Kentucky. Well, Webb was a powerful ex-army man, so he goes right into Washington, D.C., shakes Roosevelt's hand and comes away with about $300,000. Well Bohannon knew a guy named Jack Cotter, who had worked with him up at Lindenmeier. I didn't know Jack at that time, but Bohannon knew him. Cotter someway or another got a job of kind of organizing for the university, getting some guys together that had, you might say expertise in field archaeology. So here I was dead broke and I got a telegram one-day: "will you accept a job at the University of Kentucky as Supervisor of Field Excavations?" (laughter)
1528tbYou said, why not.
1529dg$150 a month and he was absolutely...
1530jgI wanted to say yes, but I didn't have money to send a telegram, so I borrowed. You mentioned there's a Professor Hill.
1531tbYeah.
1532jgOkay. He loaned me $10 to send the telegram. Hitchhiked back to Fort Collins. My parents were both retired, just barely making it. And my mother rounded up about $25 and I got a bus ticket and somewhere or another got to Lexington, Kentucky.
1533tbOkay.
1534jgThen Jack took me up... they started me up in the mountains in the Appalachians in Eastern Kentucky. They were Adena, Adena earth mounds associated with the Hopewellian culture.
1535tbI know a little bit about them.
1536jgApproximately contemporary (?), maybe a little later. So I excavated these two big mounds up there and then they moved me over to central Kentucky in Butler County where the first thing I finished... a guy named Brown had been working there and they funneled him into an administrative job in Lexington. I finished up... oh it was a probably an early Cherokee mound west... as the Cherokees were on their trait of tears. You know. There were a number of burials in a typical Cherokee slab, stone slab, coffins. And most of it had been disturbed. That land had been farmed a long time. We recovered what was recoverable and then we finally got permission to go on this big shell-midden down on the Green River just, oh a couple of miles from that first site. So then I surveyed that and got it laid out. And uh... oh boy, we took out 4 or 500 skeletons almost. Tons of artifacts.
1537dgThis was really the boondocks. Now let me tell you.
1538jgTons of artifacts. You know holes that big and just everything you can think of and some stratigraphy in those shell-beds, awful hard to identify, but there is some. And that's what these big profiles are about that Doris is mentioning they wanted to get a hold of because one of those reports never got... the one they were interested in I think it was on the east side... since they'd seen my other profiles. This one never got published. Webb for some reason... well it's next to the river and not very important. But for what they were looking for was very important to have that one. That's the one I had my original on and that's the one we never found. But we worked about a third of that deposit, I guess. That's a big one. We got about... let me see, what did we figure, four acres altogether.
1539dgSomething like that.
1540jgThree or four. We worked about a third of it. And then they wanted me to go down on the Tennessee River to make the... to see... they were putting in that Kentucky dam. And started to excavate a mound down there. They thought it was a mound, but it wasn't. It was just an erosion remnant from when the river moved. It was a pile of sand. And we went through all that work to cut some trees down, started running trenches. In the meantime, I found a very nice village site not very far from there. First thing I do was move some Negro graves and got that done. We found some very interesting, what you call the Middle Mississippian stuff. Pretty old. And that was the first time since I left Lindenmeier that I found what they're calling unfluted Folsoms. I found a few of those there, unbroken.
1541tbIs that right?
1542jgBut, strange as it may seem, little tiny things. Instead of the Folsom... little tiny thing like that.
1543dgThis is the site that Mary destroyed...
1544jgLet me show you one. Wait just a minute. I might be able to show you one.
1545tbI think I may have one. Looks just like that. (Jim leaves the room to look for an arrowhead)
1546dgHe was almost in tears one day. See they shut everything down and here he was finding old materials that... water put in there and you know.
1547tbI'm wondering if... see, I lived in Wichita Falls, Texas, which is just south of Oklahoma City. I found one like that, just about the size I've drawn there. I'm curious to see what he's fixing to bring out.
1548dgThat's something else I go through. In fact, the other day I was looking for a piece of jewelry and I've got arrowheads here and there.
1549tbI couldn't buy you folks lunch or something, could I?
1550dgI was going to ask you... we'd like very much for you to stay and eat dinner with us. I'm just waiting for a pause to get Jim to cut up a chicken.
1551tbWhy don't we just go out somewhere? Furr's Cafeteria or something instead of the work.
1552dgIf you can get him interested, that would be great. (laughter) He's a hard man...
1553tbEasterday thought... said he had had a heart attach, is that correct?
1554dgThree years ago. We came down from the hills after that because I felt and the kids felt that we should come. But its... He's doing pretty well, he has other problems. He went to his doctor and got home and said, well we're changing the water and being around teenage grandchildren. Yeah, this was a shock, when all of the... activities going on and we got home here a week ago Wednesday. And we haven't done hardly anything. We've just been resting.
1555tbIn other words when I called you last... whenever it was, it was last Sunday. I guess it was a week ago.
1556dgYes.
1557tbYou'd just been in the house two or three days, hadn't you?
1558dgThat's right. And you see, I guess you heard how Jim responded to that.
1559tbHe thought I was a salesman, I think.
1560dgYes, because they have well... every evening about suppertime we get these phone calls that they'll come and clean furniture or I don't know whether they can see in the house some way or what. He thought it was another phone call and it just hit him wrong. (laughter)
1561tbNo problem at all. I thought it was kind of humorous.
1562dgThese years they were absolutely wonderful years. And we're at the point in life where we begin to look back and realize that we were... have been extremely fortunate because we have been able to do so many things. And this work that he did...
1563tbI'm still waiting for him, I'm still waiting for him to get those... (Jim returns to the room)
1564dgDid you find anything?
1565jgI didn't find it, no.
1566dgWell, you've got those, do you...
1567tbThey look about like that? That's not very good...
1568jgThe ears are a little bit, the ears on mine are not quite that exaggerated there.
1569dgDid you look in that tin box in there?
1570jgNo.
1571dgYou want me to get that out? That's a bunch of junk but maybe.
1572tbOh, you could have had that.
1573dgI know two boxes, Jim. You didn't look in the red box did you? (Doris leaves the room)
1574jgMore like this. And occasionally you would find one... on one side there would be a little flake taken out. The other side they never touched it. Just one side. But the... very seldom find anything... maybe, maybe just a little of the ears you might see. Just a little. Not as pronouced as that.
1575tbThe reason I drew that because I found one like that. And I found it over just... It was between Oklahoma City and Dallas, Texas, okay. A little teeny thin little thing with thinning flakes coming out from the base on both sides. And I've always called it a baby Clovis, see.
1576jgYeah, but it's funny that they showed up in that site down there. Later, going along the Tennessee River bank, uncovered some more of those. Just, just little quick, little quick test holes they made. (Doris returns)
1577dgDo you know what these are? The Kuaua Ruins, is that the right...
1578jgThat's the Coronado.
1579dgYeah.
1580tbOh, okay. Those are little bird points, obsidian bird points.
1581dgNo. This is my own little clutch that I found down there one time when I went down to see Jim when he was in school.
1582jgThat looks almost like one of Hibben's, don't it.
1583dgWhere'd that come from.
1584jgOut of this can. (laughter) He's got a picture of one of those in here that looks very much like that.
1585tbYeah. But the...
1586dgNow let me look in here. I don't know what...
1587jgYou see except for material, why not call that Sandia?
1588tbOh sure, sure, sure.
1589dgSee this is...
1590tbThis is Colorado stuff, isn't it?
1591jgYeah.
1592dgTony, this is an example of what archaeologists don't want people to do, see.
1593tbMy Daddy preached to me all my... everything I've got has a got a number on it.
1594dgWell good for you.
1595tbAnd it's all cataloged.
1596dgI'm very... I thin that's wonderful.
1597tbAnd I reciprocated and make him do the same thing. So I...
1598jgThat's from eastern Kentucky. You know, they used... this is cannel coal. Are you familiar with that?
1599tbNo.
1600jgIt's almost an anthracite.
1601tbThat will burn?
1602jgYes. You want to be careful when you burn it. Our first experience was... I didn't know how to put it in the fireplace. It exploded and was... I... it's wonder I didn't burn the house down. You have to lay it flat. I put a chunk in on the side... and it's striated you know. Those layers are full of oil and the fire went up inside and wham!! But they , they used that... The Indians back there used that for weapons or used them for whatever. (There is rattling of artifacts in a can in the background of the tape)
1603dgI going to get these.
1604tbI was just telling your wife, would you care to go down to a Furr's Cafeteria or something and let me buy you lunch.
1605jgOh gosh. I think I... I'm not shaved...
1606tbOkay. Okay.
1607jgActually, I ate a pretty big breakfast.
1608tbOkay. Do you ever get down to Denver?
1609jgVery seldom. Stay as far away as I can.
1610tbI can't say I blame you. If I was retired and didn't have to work... (not understandable)
1611jgI was going to say, you see, without too much... this is a little thick up here but it would... there's something very similar to what I'm talking about.
1612tbThat's an Eden there, isn't it? (tb)
1613jgExcept, except you see if this is broken.
1614tbHow about that one. That's not what you're talking about.
1615jgNo. These are from right around here.
1616tbYeah, these are Eden points.
1617jgFound right around here. Just picked them up out on the prairie sometime. I don't know when.
1618tbIt doesn't matter. Anyway...
1619jgThis is what I'm talking about or very close to it, you know.
1620tbOkay. Go on with your story now. You were finding these, okay. I'm trying to figure out how you're mapping the moon ultimately, see.
1621jgOh, yeah. Well... oh I guess never published on that, I just kept turning in photographs and artifacts, probably... besides this one village site, I never finished that. It began to look like it was going to cover quite a bit of ground so we decided we'd better get on the river bank just for historical purposes to get some idea, how many of these sites there would be in a given stretch. And I guess I uncovered perhaps a dozen. I didn't uncover them, I pot... might say potholed them.
1622tbUh hum, testing.
1623jgYea, put a test trench in. And there are three different cultural layers in almost all of them, very definite zones. And the third one, the lower one, had this what they called Middle Mississippian. I didn't invent that term. That was already one being used. But the material in it was definitely not like the upper zone, you see.
1624dgHere's the...
1625tbYea, a possum...
1626dgAnd, here are the... some of the shell beads like he found in the shell mounds.
1627jgSo, all of a sudden... all of a sudden why this war thing... we weren't at war but we were beginning to manufacture for England, of course. And so that was the end of the WPA money. So I went in... didn't have anything to do. Went into the timber business with a couple of guys. Nearly lost my tail on that. But in the meantime, the Army map service out of Washington, D.C. was beginning to establish field offices. They could see the handwriting on the walls, better get some maps. And in almost all of these states you know they have a state WPA mapping project, unfortunately staffed by what people call me now, old man and old women. But anyway, they took them over. And so a guy who had been with the WPA project as sort of a WPA administrator, got in touch with me and wanted to know if I could come up to Louisville to talk to him, that they were looking for people who had done any kind of mapping. Particularly done any surveying. (not understandable) So I went up and sure enough I got... for the time I took a pretty good job. And Doris and I were a little short of the cash. It didn't take long, got enough to move her up to Louisville. But, she could have come sooner. We couldn't find any place to live. It was tough in 1940. Was that 1940 or '41? '41 I guess.
1628dgNo it was... I got to thinking, it was the Fall of '42.
1629jgFall of '42. Okay. Oh that's right. I closed down... I close down in Butler in '41 and went... in late '40 went down on the other... on the Tennessee in '41, okay. So I started the Army Map Service and... I was in charge of their compilations. And I've never made maps the way they wanted to make them, but anyway, at lease knew North and South on them. So... they sent me... I was there about a year and half, two years I guess. They were having... they had another office up in Cincinnati and they were having trouble up there. So, they got rid of the manager up there and sent me up there to take it over. With the idea that "oh you'll be there the duration." I was there about what, six months or less? They closed it.
1630dgIn Cincinnati?
1631jgYea.
1632dgI think you were... no longer than four months.
1633jgWas it? Well anyway, they closed it.
1634dgJust the summer.
1635jgAnd... and sent me back to Louisville as manager. Well that was a big office, I had 300 people up there. And uh... so I ran that office until '44, late '44. And they wanted... they had an office in Cleveland and uh... it was similar situation as they had in Cincinnati. The guy there he was trying to run... I don't know what he was into, but he wasn't into making maps. So I went up there with the understanding that they were going to close the office as soon as the war was over. And that's exactly what they did. But the... we were still making maps and I inherited up there, 40 Nisci who were translating maps from Japanese, captured maps... And uh... you know, you could look at the map, but there was all...
1636tbAll this writing.
1637jgYeah. What town is that or what does that say. So we had... so, anyway we stayed there. I was in Washington, D.C. when the Armistice... when the collapse of Japan came. Doris was still in Cleveland, and then I went back and hurriedly got everything in that office ready to close out and what was to be shipped to Washington, equipment and so forth. See my original understanding that I'd go back to Louisville because they were going to keep that office open. And it's still open. Still buying maps at the center. And... so when I got the... I got the thing closed out in Cleveland, what they wanted me to do was move to Washington and take over their Department of Geographic Names. Just about our (?) and so forth. And I don't know, I guess I'd had a pretty good record of just getting along with Hillbillies.
1638tbGetting the job done?
1639jgHillbillies, Chinamen, Koreans, anything.
1640dgWhite Russians.
1641jgWhite Russians, yeah I had White Russians. So I ran that for almost ten years.
1642ybThis was all civil service then, huh?
1643jgAnd uh... and the weather finally got me down. I got... ended up with a sinus infection and couldn't get rid of it. So one day the doctor I went to...said, where are you from? I told him. And he said, well you know what we've found out about these sinus things. Sometimes if you can go back to where you were raised you can get rid of it. Well I didn't know if I was going to do that. But I had a... a guy that used to be a... oh, he was an officer, but he had... forgot what his title he had... he had worked all.. he didn't work all the field offices, but he was a... sort of coordinator or mapping activities because he was... he was actually came from the USGS. He had been in charge of mapping for the USGS for years. So I went down to see the major one day and I said... (End of Tape 3, Side 1)
1644jg(Beginning of Tape 3, Side 2) Yea, he said look... he said I'll tell you though we can't... I know that they can't offer you the grade. They just can't do that. He said, the guy that's running it isn't the grade you are now. (laughter) So I took a long gamble and took the job for three years, I guess. I couldn't you know... they just weren't paying anything. So I went to work for a private engineering company in Denver for a little better, little better salary, not a whole lot. Then our first, our oldest boy we discovered had a congenital problem with his uh...
1645dgAdrenal.
1646jgAdrenal, adrenal (?) gland (not understandable), which is an enlarged adrenal gland. Then our old mountain doctor friend discovered it was very serious and went to a specialist in Denver who didn't know much about it, but he knew the disease and put him through all kinds of tests because that omega is just a tumor they have. Kids sometimes get at the base of the...
1647dgPituitary.
1648jgPituitary, which can be very easily taken care of, but that wasn't his problem. So we looked... at that time the best information they had in Denver was... there was a specialist in St. Louis, a woman, and there was a couple in New York City. I have know...
1649tbWind's blowing.
1650jgThe door blew open. (Doris gets up and shuts the door) Going to New York was out, but (not understandable). So I wrote them a letter and wham, I had a job. Cause I... I couldn't afford it I was taking them back to St. Louis, if I could. Good golly. Not on my salary. So I took the job and a... little better, little more money than (?) Engineering was paying. (Not understandable) Anyway, I went to work at St. Louis there and I was in charge of the Information Center. And lucky enough to work back up to the salary I originally had in Washington. And during the interim, why NASA and the Air Force got together. NASA wasn't that... and at that time the only map of the moon that amounted to anything was by an Italian named Chapporelli, an Italian astronomer and a physicist... Oh, it showed big craters. If you were to compare it with a good photograph that... you could see where he'd gotten them all right. And a... so they decided well one thing you'd have to have was a telescope. So you took pictures and also have them view it. And they settled on a old observatory place at Arizona. Made the contract with them, I guess NASA... no, I guess... no it was NASA money really. NASA paid the Airforce to map the moon is the way it worked. You know how these Amercian deals are. So the a... they began asking around for people that would like to go to Flagstaff and work on the moon... and the fellow who was in charge, a fellow named Bill Canell... was I in... was I in... yeah, we were in the same division. He wasn't my boss there. He was, well anyway, he was in administration there. He asked me if I'd like to go over there and I said, why heck yes. I love to work. Well he said... this was right at lunch hour. He said, I got to have a quick resume because I've got to go up and see the old man right after lunch. So I scribbled out what I knew about the moon.
1651tbComes out at night.
1652jgSo anyway, at the end of it I said, well mostly what I know about it is I wooed and won my wife under it. (laughter) When the Colonel read that he told Bill, he says, hire that guy. (lots of laughter)
1653tbSo off to Flagstaff...
1654jgSo off to Flagstaff for eight years. We had a great time there.
1655tbYou were mapping the moon?
1656jgYep.
1657tbThrough the telescope? (tb)
1658jgYeah, photography. Yea, we a... or did some work on the ...on the solar telescope at a... out at Tucson.
1659dg(?) Peak.
1660jg(?) and also the 20-inch and then in the meantime the Air Force bought a telescope form a guy in Texas and moved it to Lowell; worked on it. It wasn't a very good telescope. We couldn't... we couldn't seem to get the lenses aligned up right. It was usable but it wasn't too good. But the old Clark refractor they had, boy that was something. Made around 1890. It was... when the scene was good you could see things down to 100 meters. You could only see them for a fraction of a second but you could seem them. And a... so we would take the best photographic we had and make a mosaic or a map of the scale, one to one million. We just followed regular old Air Force procedure, one to one million flying charts, and take it up to the telescope and sit there... there was such and such crater and you just start working. All of a sudden, wham! There were ten little craters that showed up, see. You do the best you could to place them. And then in the meantime, you're shooting photography (not understandable). And you could verify placement by... by re-scaling your photograph to the scale one to one million scale. It was very surprising, usually you're only off a pencil or two, just from... You know, you had such good stuff to work. You know, here's a crater and here's one and there's one right... You could see right square in between so you put it there and that was just about right. We mapped the front side of the moon. We were only going to do the central band around the equator. But the more NASA got of it the more they decided they wanted to have. So we did the front side. And eventually when the photography became available we did the back side. The polar regions of the moon are not well mapped because we never had orbiter photography over the poles. Just... just almost, but not quite. So it's kind of faked in. Show a few mountains here and there. (laughter)
1661dgWe were up there on vacation when they first went up there (to the moon) and we were at my sister's, and Jim sat in the chair watching that all day long. And I thought he was going to go to pieces, because we was wondering did they do it right. Was everything all right? So they'd... that was really...
1662jgWe before... before they went (to the moon), course we had the orbiter photography which...
1663tbHelped you clean up your few mistakes here and there?
1664jgGosh yes. And then you could even... you know, don't try to go here, too many rocks. And a... the final selection... I never had anything to do with the final selection, but I had to do with the final... the final maps of which was sent to NASA and then they made a decision where they were going to go.
1665tbI be darned.
1666jgAnd they went.
1667dgThe first darkroom was made out of a closet in this old building.
1668jgYeah, didn't have anything but cold water to start with.
1669tbYou stayed with them up until the end, up until you retired or?
1670jgYeah. We closed out in '68. Then I went back and worked until '76.
1671dg'73, Jim.
1672jg'73, is that when I retired.
1673dgYes, you did.
1674tbYou've been retired for ten years now, huh?
1675dgBecause you... those last three years, you see, while held been out in Arizona and everybody had... all had their little place in the main plan. And he'd come home gripe, gripe, griping. And he was so offensive... well, they'd had so much freedom out there you know. And a...
1676jgWell, they gave us enough... you know, you could retire. And so I... we sat down and figured it out. Well if I worked another ten years how much difference would it make on my annuity? It was about $12 a month.
1677dgWell and the other thing...
1678jgCourse I didn't know about inflation. (laughter)
1679dgThe other thing, he was beginning to develop arthritis. He knew that he had it. And a... he hadn't been to a doctor for it, but he ached. And a...
1680jgBut the... I knew something was making me ache.
1681dgYou know.
1682jgWell I guess one thing that made me decide, was a... when Nixon got in, he a... you know the first thing he wanted to do was cut down the number of people working for the government. So, if you were 55 or older he would give you a 4% bonus on your annuity if you'd quit. So I thought well that daggone air-conditioned building down there... you know I can't take that air conditioning. We found that out. And a... and that's when I sat down and figured out, what's going to be the difference in your annuity, twelve bucks. It was worth $12 to get out of the air conditioning. And after... too bad right after I retired I came down with an acute case of arthritis and I was in bad shape. I could not hardly move. Fortunately, man got me out of it there and then I came out here, which is what I needed. The dryer the better. But the...
1683dgNow out here it isn't like it used to be.
1684jgNo, it's getting wet out here now.
1685dgIt's so humid that... really compared to what the early days...
1686tbYea, yea.
1687dgI mean when we were young. There're more people and there's more water.
1688jgWe got this huge reservoir right over here.
1689tbPlus all the irrigated farms.
1690jgYeah. It's increased. You see an awful lot. All that... just... just right north of Ft. Collins here, on I'm told... mid 1930's I guess, it was just sagebrush and, heck, it's all irrigated now. Water all over the place.
1691dgBut, one thing that brought on his arthritis, he a... working, you know, in the darkroom in cold water in Flagstaff.
1692jgYeah, finally got a hot water heater. And boy, did that feel good. I'll tell you, developing film in cold water on warm days putting water outside so it would get up maybe 60. It's no fun. That was another reason I think I got on, cause they looked for someone that knew a little bit of photography and I guess I was the only one, because Bill didn't know any photography.
1693dgWell...
1694jgAnd a... so one of the first things I had to do when I got out there... there was just three of us to start... was get some kind of darkroom. So we took the clothes closet and turned it into a darkroom.
1695dgAnother thing they couldn't get people interested in going to Arizona from St. Louis. That's at the end of the world.
1696tbOff the edge.
1697dgYes. (laughter) We knew that it wasn't quite that bad.
1698jgWell the guys that didn't go over to Flagstone, missed a...
1699dgFlagstaff.
1700jgFlagstaff.
1701tbSounds like they missed big times.
1702dgOh, it was an absolutely wonderful experience. We got to see the Indians before the Indian women began to wear jeans. They worn the dress and...
1703tbTwo and three layers?
1704dgYes, and when the men...
1705jgYou were raised in Albuquerque.
1706tbYou bet.
1707dgWhen the men were still wearing their knots, their hair knots, you know. And a... wonderful experiences on the reservation that we wouldn't trade for anything.
1708tbI'm going to have to go. I fell like I've taken up so much of your time.
1709dgOh, well we really enjoyed...
1710jgI've got to apologize to you the way I talked to you the other night.
1711tbHey, that was... that was the best thing... I... you know I couldn't, I... I just couldn't wait until I saw somebody the next day at the office to tell about that... that conversation on the phone. We laughed and laughed and I said, he knew I was a salesman and he wan't going to trust me. (Doris is laughing)
1712jgWell, I'll tell you there's a little bit more to it. We... we left Chicago early because I was having intestinal problems. Not only that, I can't say anything I did to hurt my back, but I had some really sore vertebra in my lower back.
1713tbI got you out of bed, huh?
1714jgI was asleep on the couch. (laughter) And I could just see another carpet salesman. I didn't even know where I was when I got up. I probably had a couple of beers or something, got up...
1715dgSo what was funny was to hear the other... this end of the conversation.
1716jgI don't know what made me do that. I was just so uncomfortable. I'm not really that kind of person. (Doris is laughing)
1717tbI could tell, you know... as I talked to you, I could tell you becoming, you know, more, more milder. I guess that's not the right word but...
1718dgYes, it is the right word. (Doris is still laughing)
1719tbBut I was winning you over.
1720jgYeah, you were. But when I decided you weren't a salesman well now what?
1721dgWell, I'll tell you. The other funny part of it to me was this. When the young man got in touch with him concerning this site in Kentucky, he wrote a letter. And it was signed Alan May, A-L-A-N. So Jim looked at it and he thought that, oh I suppose that's some gal studying archaeology. And I said, I don't know. We debated back and forth. And the guy had designated a time that he would call us long distance. And he set up these phone calls, which he carried on for, I guess about six weeks, didn't he. Once a week.
1722jgUm hum.
1723dgNever have we seen anything published. He was gong to publish and all this. We've never seen anything. We've never heard another word from him, but anyway he got the information. But what, I was so thankful when the first phone call came. I answered the phone and... Alan May from so and so and so and so. Well I thought, thank God it's a man. (Doris is laughing)
1724jgI'm not... I'm kind of from the old school. I don't exactly go for women archaeologists.
1725tbI'll tell you what...
1726jgHow does your Dad feel about it?
1727tbI called my father this morning, you know, just before I called you. And I said, I had told him I had finally located somebody who could talk to me. And I told him who it was... and you know... because he feels the same way about Hibbon as I do. In fact, he probably put most of my ideas that I have in my head, see. And he says, you know, he says I don't know if you'll be able to get those folks to talk, you know. He says, they're from the age I am and... you know they... they just may not say anything bad about Hibbon.
1728dgWe didn't, did we? (Doris is laughing)
1729jgNo, I... I told you... he's an excellent speaker. He is intelligent and a... It's just that...
1730tbA little romantic.
1731jgA little romantic. He gets carried away.
1732tbBut he really... you know he... said remember, you know, they're... they're from a period in time when things were tough.
1733jgHe's right... he's right on that.
1734dgOh, yes. We tried to...
1735tbI'll tell you what, I've got to get him up here to meet you folks.
1736jgOkay.
1737dgWe would enjoy it.
1738tbI don't know when. It won't be this weekend because it's just a quick trip....
1739jgYea.
1740tbBut...
1741jgWhere did you say he was?
1742tbHe's in Albuquerque.
1743jgAlbuquerque. Okay.
1744tbAnd I want to tell you that if folks are ever in Denver, if you're going to spend the night, you've got a bed at my place.
1745dgOh great.
1746tbIf you're just passing through, I'd love to have you come by. I... I really...
1747dgListen. Now there's... Pardon me.
1748tbYes.
1749dgIs there an archaeological conference the 12th? Somewhere around the 12th of this month there's some kind of... that Cotter's coming to.
1750tbI... there's... there's something like that happening down there.
1751dgNow I haven't... I don't know how we... well...
1752tbSee, I work... I work for Texaco 40 hours a week. This really is my hobby.
1753jgUh hum.
1754tbAnd of... I'm not involved with the anthropology clubs and all these things going on and so I wouldn't know about that.
1755dgI'm asking for a...
1756jgYou might check the bulletin boards.
1757tbI will ask and I'll find out for you.
1758dgDo please. And I'll tell you why...
1759jgWe take the Denver News and they have, you know they have a list of things once a week of what's coming up. A lot of times they...
1760tbThis is when now?
1761dgWell, I think it's the 12th.
1762jgAbout the 12th of April.
1763tbApril 12th, okay.
1764dgAnd Jack Cotter, the man that Jim mentioned, he went ahead after the war and so forth...
1765tbE-R or O-R?
1766dgE-R.
1767tbJack Cotter, Okay.
1768dgHe went with National Parks and he has been... he's worked all of his years with them.
1769jgHe got... He was Regional Director of National Park Archaeology for Eastern United States.
1770dgWe have not seen him now since '41.
1771tbBut you would like to know if this is happening?
1772dgYes. And he wrote a card and he was supposed to come...
1773jgUnfortunately, we got that card, and I want to tell you, he's such a terrible writer we don't know what conference it is. You can't make it out.
1774tbI'll see what I can find out for you.
1775jgIt kind of looks like American Association of...
1776tbThis or that, huh?
1777jgAnthropological...
1778dgHe mentioned...
1779jgAmerican Association of Retired National Park Archaeologists. Something along that line.
1780dgHe mentioned that he was supposed to have been here, and this would have been last month, to a... some kind of an archaeological conference. But he could not come because he was recovering from a laminectomy. So we had quite a tussle to find out what that was. We're not sure yet.
1781tbWell anyway, if he is coming... if there is a conference...
1782dgYes. We would...
1783tbYou would like to know. I'll call you. You bet. If I can find...
1784dgWe would like to get down there to see Jack.
1785jgWe haven't seen Jack...
1786tbOkay. Like I said, you've got a place to stay.
1787dgWell, wonderful. Thank you so much.
1788jgWell, we appreciate it.
1789tbWe got a room just for this kind of thing, with a bed in it and everything.
1790dgWe have a cousin in Wheatridge and she and her husband... when we've gone down we go there. And they have had their property for sale for three years trying to sell it and Ted won't budge an inch on the price because this is his price. Well, they now think they've got we...ll they have a contract. But they are waiting.
1791tbWell, they're not living in it then.
1792dgOh, yes. They stayed there.
1793jgBut they're getting stuff organized to move to Loveland.
1794tbOh, okay.
1795jgIf and when this...
1796tbSo there would be a chance that you might stay at my place.
1797jgThere's a chance.
1798dgI don't know.
1799tbWonderful. That would be great.
1800dgWe don't know what the situation is with them, you know they just... they hadn't heard when we flew in I called them and... so. But we'd give anything to see Jack. We haven't... it's always many, many years. And we correspond at Christmas time. And a...
1801jgOnce in a while we get a letter from him. There's something he's thinking about or wants or can I remember. Not very often.
1802dgAll these people you know they're... of the ones that Jim worked with, most of us have kept in touch through the years. But boy, you know it's getting to be...
1803tbThere ain't that many (not understandable).
1804dgRight. I was going to tell you, starting a while back talking about Renaud. I wanted to finish that little story. This fellow Bohannon, he would have been, I think, the original hippie. He was from Maryland, but he had ties in the West.
1805tbThis is Bohannon, now?
1806dgBohannon. This is the man that went to the Phillipines and that Jim mentioned. He was up at Folsom site and that's where Jim met him. And he was without a doubt... I guess in all the people that we've known through the years... Bohannon was the most outstanding character of all of them. And he... imagined himself, I think, as a mountain man. And when he came west, he didn't see the West as it is now. He saw it with the buffalo and the Indians and that's the way it was. And by God, you'd better not tell him any different. Well he was most upset with Renaud's publications and Jim was and all the guys on the Smithsonian dig. So Renaud came up here, I don't know what... oh, he talked to the Indian Rock Club. And I went with these guys... I was so embarrassed, I could have just, you know, shriveled up and died.
1807jgWe made it rough on the old guy that night.
1808dgReally, and they just called him on everything. And Bo... Here they were off from the dig and they were just as brown as... they had long hair, and pretty ragged, rough looking guys. And in those years they wore jeans and always wore moccasins, leather moccasins that they scuffed around in; big hats, and... I'll never forget that. And so I've often wondered what that poor man... If it effected... really bothered him?
1809jgOh, he was a Frenchman. It probably rolled off of his... (jg)
1810tbLike water off a duck's back. Well, let me use your restroom and I'm going to...
1811jgYou bet.
1812dgWell, this has been fun.
1813tbOh, it's been fabulous. (I leave the room and there is a pause)
1814jgYeah, I think it's been kind of good to reminisce on some of these things.
1815dgI was going to ask him to stay for dinner, but we won't have anything done.
1816jgWell, it's so late. Well he kept saying he's got to get... well, he probably does have to get back. What time is it?
1817dgQuarter to one.
1818jgBut, it's pretty hazy, this Sandia thing. Like I don't remember any Folsom points.
1819dgWell, Jim you know.
1820jgBut you see I wouldn't want to say that they didn't find those...
1821dgNo, but.
1822jgI wouldn't want to say that. (jg)
1823dgYou also know that if they had of you would have remembered it. And if you'd known about. (I am returning to room)
1824jgWell I said, if we'd... if we'd had found any, I think, Wes would still be going up and down that mountain. (I laugh)
1825tbI know he would have been too, because I know how... that's what I need. (Doris hands something to me). I know how my father felt when we found our first Folsom site around Albuquerque.
1826dgThat's remarkable, really that...
1827tbTell you quickly what... like I said, when I was very, very young we used to hunt arrowheads. And this was... he (Tony's father) got a job with the government intially on too, procurement or something. And he a... anyway when I grew to college age and took this first anthro, it was physical anthropology with Hibben I came home and I said let's... let's go see if we (my father and I) can find an arrowhead. He was just delighted. And we went out one afternoon... and... we found ourselves going out quite frequently. And finally I said, why don't we try to find some old stuff (paleoindian) like you used to find in the Panhandle. And my father says, there isn't any around Albuquerque. I've been looking for 30 years and there just isn't any old stuff around Albuquerque. And I said, well, I can't accept that. And so I said... I was a budding young engineer hearing about science and all this. I said, let's use the scientific method. And so we made a hypothesis. And we started looking. It took us six months, but one afternoon we walked onto our first Folsom site. And we pulled off... I want to say about 30 bases that afternoon. And you know, a whole sack full of scrapers. And we had our first site. And after... my father was so elated, you know. He hadn't found a Folsom site since he was... you know, the 30's in the Panhandle. And shortly thereafter, we found another one. And in about three years we had amassed a collection that Hibben just would somehow... just drool, you know. Well as a matter of fact, have you heard of a man named Jim Judge?
1828jgYes.
1829tbOkay. Well Jim Judge did his Ph.D. thesis out of our collection.
1830jgOh, is that right?
1831tbPaleo Man and the Rio Grande Valley, Okay.
1832jgUh huh.
1833tbBut it got so that we could not go out in an afternoon without finding a new site. It's this whole concept of predicting models. You know, we had in our minds what a site... what it took to make a site and we would go look there and find one. Well I ultimately graduated and when I moved to Texas, the first place I went was down around Midland, Odessa, West Texas, Hobbs, New Mexico, that country. It took me one year to modify the predictive model and I started kicking it out again. Then they (Texas) moved me to Wichita Falls, Texas and I started... I was only there a short time and I started kicking it out. Then we went to Indonesia. I couldn't find nothing. We were in a swamp. But then I came back and I went to Casper, and I started finding stuff up there again. Now, no Folsom. I didn't find any Folsom in Casper, but I found Agate Basin material and Eden stuff. And then I'm down here in Denver and I'm just about ready to kick some Folsom stuff out but it's in the high mountains. So I know what I'm doing on the ground and I'll show you some of the stuff that I've found since... (tb)
1834dgThis site up at Grande has been interesting. (dg)
1835tbOh, the very old site that they were scrapping over. Yeah, the mud dauber in mud.
1836dgMud (?) they call them or something.
1837tbNo, it's the... No, it's the way they put mud in wood slats or something.
1838dgYes.
1839jgMud waddle.
1840tbYes.
1841dgWaddle. I guess that the... daubers is the waddle.
1842tbBut anyway, my... my father is basically forgotten more than I'll probably ever know about this kind of stuff. Because he did it when Grandfather Baker. His collection's in the museum of Panhandle A&M; which is full of Clovis and Folsom. We have Clovis sites down there in Albuquerque. We've got Eden sites. We've got Folsom sites. We've got what I'm calling a Belen site. A Belen point.
1843jgUm hum.
1844tbAll the artifacts are cataloged and marked on probably many USGS maps that you probably manufactured. I can take you right to the spot of all these various sites. And since, being an engineer, I have a computer. And I do a lot of this type work on a computer. So I thought I'd better go back and get an education.
1845jgThat's great. (jg)
1846tbLike I said there's very few archaeologists like yourself, kicking around.
1847jgYeah. I expect that's true.
1848tbMost of them, you know, sitting behind a damn desks and...
1849dgI can't get him... they wanted him to come work on Folsom site material down there at the museum. Finally he said, hell I wish they'd leave me alone. I don't want to do anything for anybody. (Doris is laughing)
1850tbWell it may not be worth it, you know.
1851jgWell its like I was telling Tony, I told him about (not understandable) what are you going to do with it. Coffin gave it to them and it's supposed to have come from Lindenmeier. Well maybe it didn't all, maybe they picked some up here and there. I don't know.
1852dgWell no...
1853jgAll you can ... all you can do is just start, number one. Write down number one.
1854dgThis point is right because the old museum that they had in the WPA building that was built for the museum. They had it so stacked and piled with stuff that you wouldn't believe. I mean... just nobody knew where... You'd ask for something is. Well they, you know, get down to the lower level or whatever. And they moved into the new one and a lot of people took their things out. Jim's family... to give you and example, they had a... snuff box in there and... that was the date of 1066 given to somebody in his family. And we went down to take that out one day when we were moving and funny thin, nobody know what happen to it.
1855tbI know.
1856dgI want to show him that.
1857tbHalf of Grandfather Baker's arrowhead collection's disappeared at that university, too.
1858jgBut you see...
1859tbI know, they wanted you to be a curator and you want to be an archaeologist.
1860jgKeep you down there saying catalog, well what are you going to do. Ah Folsom base number, 2. Folsom base, red chalcedony, number 3. Possible Folsom tip. That's all I can say about it.
1861tb(Doris hands me a rock with some scratches, and I comment on it) We have several things like this.
1862dgWell, we were interested... we found this years and years ago. And since, you know there the ...article in National Geographies from when, Jim? What in the last few years?
1863jgOh the a... the a... structures they found in New England.
1864dgNo. (dg)
1865tbYou're talking about America BC, that book that's been written about the...
1866dgNo, this is... I mean he's talking about that, yes. But this is not that. This isn't the article in the Geographic that I'm talking about. We just read that book last...
1867tbYeah, but it... this is the book that's speaking to writing, old writing. (tb)
1868dgYes.
1869jgUm hum. But this article that you're talking about this also. There's... there's one in Geographic that shows...
1870dgThat shows rocks similar that were marked rocks and designating...
1871tbI have one I found up around Casper that's very similar to this. But it's more boom boom. (I am indicating cut marks along an edge) I... I could make more writing out of it than this one here. But I don't think it is.
1872jgI... I don't think that was either. (Referring to the rock in my hand)
1873dgWell I wondered what... in...
1874jgIt is true, one of those pictures they got in National Geographic looks a whole lot like this. But, I can't make...
1875tbI'll bet you they're just scraping this to get the black off of it. Aren't they? Is this a material that will produce a black dust that they could put in paint.
1876jgThis is from a coal seam. This is some of that stuff that...
1877tbThat same stuff. Yeah, I'll bet you this will scrape and make black paint.
1878jgBut then you know what I actually think it is, that's where they sharpened awls.
1879tbCould be, could be. Or used an awl to scrape the black material off of it like.
1880jgBut then it would seem like they'd use a flint scrapper or something...
1881dgWell if they were going to... if I were going to do it, I wouldn't be gouging straight lines, I'd be scraping. So that you get a larger... a larger amount, wouldn't you.
1882tbI don't know. Without doing it myself a little bit I can't speak to, you know...
1883dgI mean it would be logical, instead of digging...
1884jgCause I tell you the reason I wonder about that is... is so often you will find... it just can't... this is made material and (?) to tell you I can't find any of this out here. I don't think it exists out here, but it's not uncommon to find soft sandstone with the same markings on it and according to... according to, you might say Pioneer history, Indians were using that to sharpen quills and awls, things made of bone just to get a fine point. They probably had some better process like chunk, coarse basalt or something in order to get it shaped up first. And then to sharpen, they do what I'd do. Well, I haven't got any sandpaper, I will use this and sandstone.
1885tbOh, I'll tell you what. I've taken pieces of monos and metates and some of those good fine grain sandstones and sharpened a knife on them.
1886jgSure you can, you bet.
1887tbBeautiful stuff.
1888jgThat's why if you eat corn off of them long enough, you grind your teeth down. (Doris laughs) But the... Now I see. Who knows, maybe some kids were horsing around.
1889dgWell, you know I've often thought you know... you know how...
1890jgIt's striking how similar this is to one of those (interruptions)
1891dgWhittles.
1892jg(Several people talking) Nice Icelandic writing.
1893dgYou know how a man that does whittling... if you've ever watched an old time mountaineer whittler work away, they don't even know what they're doing sometimes. They just make, you know. And I've often thought, well if they would do it, why wouldn't an Indian have a piece of stone and just sit and...
1894jgWhy sure. And another thing we know from just historic times, not every... not every Indian sat around making his points. They had specialists.
1895dgSure.
1896jgSee, one guy would make, I suppose he got... if you got a buffalo, you got a leg off of a buffalo and half of the hide. But they had specialists and sat around making these points. And... some people think that in a controlled area where you were made to study, where you see the workshop site then you can identify as you pick up points or excavate or whatever. That the... By very careful analysis, okay this bunch was made by Jojo and this bunch over here was made by so and so.
1897tbWhere'd you get that idea?
1898jgThere's... there's a similarity. I mean the workmanship.
1899tbWhere did you get that idea? If you can think of it.
1900jgOh gosh. You're going way back now. Well I can't answer that.
1901tbOkay, because my father in the last year has been saying exactly the same thing.
1902jgIs that right?
1903dgWell, don't think that's a logical custom.
1904jgWell yeah... but I... We know for a fact in historic times before they began to get the metal off in the wagon wheels to make metal points... in the 1820's and 30's there were trappers. They actually saw the... the a...
1905tbEthnic groups.
1906jgYeah the experts making the projectiles.
1907dgWell, why wouldn't they then as they do now. I mean you've got certain Navajos or Hopis who excel in silver work, or this or that and they're well known. They don't all make pottery.
1908jgThey don't all make silver buckles, you know.
1909dgNo.
1910jgThey turn it over to the ones that have the artistic...
1911dgThat's what I trying to say.
1912jg... and esthetic values.
1913tbStill it's a... it's a very detailed, fine concept. You know almost a microscopic concept on the big picture that we're trying to understand which we have only a few rocks to paint a whole picture with.
1914jgYea. Yea.
1915tbAnd to get down to that fine a concept, I find it very interesting that both you and my father are saying the same thing.
1916dgBut they come from... here's another aspect of all of this. Now this is departing completely from this, but it's to try to explain. As you get older, you get a broader concept.
1917tbOh I... I agree.
1918dgYour perspective...
1919tb... becomes much larger.
1920dg... changes and just like a lot of people they get a different perspective when they get up on top of a mountain or when they go on a trip or something. The same thing I think reacts as you get older in a different way. And sometimes...
1921tbWell, I'm 38 years old, I can see my perspective change.
1922dgBut, you're our daughter's age.
1923jgOh yea. Sure. (jg)
1924dgYou're a little bit younger than she. She's almost 41. My gosh. But my grandmother used to say, all things shall be revealed to you. This was one of her sayings and I see this everyday. I think about something and I'll think, well by gosh, that's the way it was supposed to be or that's why we did it this way or that's why whatever. And I think maybe that's a little bit a part of this.
1925tbIt might be. It might be.
1926jgThere's one thing I noticed, I don't keep up very much with modern archaeological literature. It's too expensive to keep up with the publications. Our library... well CSU has some, or course. I just don't keep up with it. In such things as Geographic, Smithsonian, Natural History, we take those, you know. And... I just noticed one thing that seems to me sort of trend. It used to be that you wouldn't make much guessing about, you know...
1927tbSpeculation.
1928jg(not understandable) a site. And now days apparently you are not ostracized if you make a wild guess. Well, some of the things I've read, they're wild guesses alright.
1929tbI know it. I know it. Even what little I know I can recognized that it's bologna.
1930jgPretty wild guesses.
1931dgBut then that goes along with our society, don't you think?
1932jgAnalyzing any archaeological find always seemed to me, well, what, you know, well would you do? What would you be doing if you were living at that time? If you didn't have any steel, no titanium or molybdenum or whatever, what would you do? Well heck, you would... I don't see anything unusual about taking certain types of rock and manufacturing whatever you need. And if you stay at it long enough and you develop the... the skill for it. You can turn out some beautiful stuff.
1933tbYou bet.
1934jgI've seen some stuff made in the last 15 years that some guys just wanted to learn how to chip obsidian. It's nice.
1935tbYou ever heard of a guy named Mccormick?
1936jgNo.
1937tbI got one more story, and then I got to go. (Doris is laughing at me) There's a fellow that lives, used to live, I think he's still alive, down in Pritchett, Colorado. It's right down in the southeastern corner of Colorado. And in the 30's when my father was still home, still with my grandfather, before he left home; arrowheads... good made arrowheads started to appear but Grandfather Baker and my father could tell that they were made by a white man. And this happened, they continued to appeared and my Grandfather Baker finally determined it was this fellow named McCormick. And Grandfather Baker was kind of ornery and periodically he'd drive up to Pritchett and just bust in this guys house trying to catch him making arrowheads. And he never could do it. Finally they had some kind of archaeologist or convention, or something, in Colorado Springs and Grandfather Baker went for some reason. They'd asked him for years to go and he never would go and he finally went and there was that fellow McCormick. And he said, damn it I know you've been making arrowheads for 20 years now. Tell me you've been doing it. He said, yeah I'll tell you I've been doing it. He said that's the way I made my living through the depression. It was about four years ago I went down and me the man myself. And he is good. He can make anything. And he has never worked a day in his life. He raised his entire family.
1938dgOn arrowheads? (Doris is laughing)
1939tbMaking arrowheads and selling them.
1940jgYeah. Really, you know, in some magazine you will see... so can get one dozen fine authentic arrowheads for $12.50.
1941tbThis guy makes Folsoms.
1942jgOh, does he?
1943tbOh, you bet.
1944jgWell that's good. (jg)
1945tbI got some of his work.
1946jgHe's got to be good, then.
1947tbHe is good. His Folsoms... if he'll sits down and takes the time... He said when he first started making Folsoms... he learned how to make them, but as you learned at Lindenmeier, Folsom manufacture is not too productive. And so he... he developed a press that would produce one almost every time but it ends up with a very thick point instead of a thin point, you know. But most people can't tell the difference. It's only been recently that people have been demanding a more authentic version and he said he had to re-teach himself how to hit it and throw it right.
1948dgYou've seen a lot of Indians, haven't you?
1949tbI guess, I don't know.
1950dgI mean if you've been in Albuquerque and so forth.
1951tbYes.
1952dgWell, I told Jim, I always notice people's hands and, you know, I just do. And we... in our years that we lived in Arizona we had occasion to be around the Indians a good deal and I worked in a store where I managed an art department so I had occasion to sell to a lot of Indians. And I have never yet seen an Indian with unsightly hands. They're delicate, beautiful hands. And I think Jim will... I don't know that this means anything, but I'm trying to say that when they've made things they do it, it's a beautiful job, whatever they make. I mean they don't put out an ugly piece of workmanship, you know.
1953jgWell, most of them have an artistic sense about them.
1954dgThey have a sense of beauty, I guess.
1955jgSome are better than others, you know, like some guys can write better that maybe some engineers.
1956tbTrue.
1957dgNow, I'm going to tell you one more thing about this guy.
1958jgThat's just part of being human. No matter how good you are there's somebody better.
1959dgI don't know whether they're going to ask him (Jim) ever again to give a program anywhere, but this fall he and an old, old friend that's a rancher up in the mountains, were asked to give a program at the Historical Society on early day ranching. So Jim when his turn came to relate some incidents, why... (End of tape and end of recorded interview)

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